Why doesn't Porsche make a smaller 911?
10-30-2020, 09:24 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
They already build one it’s called a Cayman or in cab version a Boxster. Both very capable canyon carvers and great driving cars. If it must be a 6cyl go to the GT4. Porsche will never put a watered down version of the 911 at 300-350 hp in between the 911 and Cayman. It would not make financial sense in a line up that already has more than enough variations.
If you want a more raw version it’s GT3 is you want a more compact version it’s the Cayman.
If you want a more raw version it’s GT3 is you want a more compact version it’s the Cayman.
10-30-2020, 02:35 PM
#62
Porsche (and any major manufacturer at this point) designs, makes, and sells what people WANT. Their market research and data is infinitely greater than anyone's opinions here on what will or will not sell.
Could they make a couple thousand models of a specific type? Yes. Will it sell? Probably...scarcity of a unique model will always sell for any brand that has several thousand loyalists in it's rolodex. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should though, and Porsche is smart.
Keeping brutally sharp focus on the most important thing that drives the purpose of the company comes with sacrifices. Steve Jobs once said that he was more proud of what Apple DID NOT make, than the few things they did make.
Focus, simplicity, economies of scale, and following the greatest return for the least effort is what drives the 911 to evolve over time. You can't please everyone, but Porsche is clearly very intentional in its choices.
Could they make a couple thousand models of a specific type? Yes. Will it sell? Probably...scarcity of a unique model will always sell for any brand that has several thousand loyalists in it's rolodex. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should though, and Porsche is smart.
Keeping brutally sharp focus on the most important thing that drives the purpose of the company comes with sacrifices. Steve Jobs once said that he was more proud of what Apple DID NOT make, than the few things they did make.
Focus, simplicity, economies of scale, and following the greatest return for the least effort is what drives the 911 to evolve over time. You can't please everyone, but Porsche is clearly very intentional in its choices.
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macanspnw (10-30-2020)
10-30-2020, 03:17 PM
#63
Instructor
I know it's not rear-engine, but IMHO the Mazda MX-5 Club w/ MT checks a *lot*of those boxes. The relatively new ND2 update with its (slightly) increased power is very tempting to me as a fun little weekend car. Not to mention its good looks, reliability, build quality, etc. Plus it has a 30-year heritage and IMO has earned its spot as a true sports car icon.
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10-30-2020, 03:42 PM
#64
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I know it's not rear-engine, but IMHO the Mazda MX-5 Club w/ MT checks a *lot*of those boxes. The relatively new ND2 update with its (slightly) increased power is very tempting to me as a fun little weekend car. Not to mention its good looks, reliability, build quality, etc. Plus it has a 30-year heritage and IMO has earned its spot as a true sports car icon.
10-30-2020, 04:15 PM
#65
I think the 718 is underrated on this board. My wife has a 718 Boxster, and it is a hoot to drive. Like all mid-engine Porsches, in steers and handles beautifully-- better than practically anything else on the road save for a 911. Sure, the noise from the four cylinder is less pleasing than the old six, and if that's the most important thing, then forget the 718. But what car under $75,000 delivers this much enjoyment, or mirrors the older, smaller, less powerful 911's better?
10-30-2020, 05:03 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
I think the 718 is underrated on this board. My wife has a 718 Boxster, and it is a hoot to drive. Like all mid-engine Porsches, in steers and handles beautifully-- better than practically anything else on the road save for a 911. Sure, the noise from the four cylinder is less pleasing than the old six, and if that's the most important thing, then forget the 718. But what car under $75,000 delivers this much enjoyment, or mirrors the older, smaller, less powerful 911's better?
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Master Deep (10-31-2020)
10-31-2020, 12:57 AM
#67
I think the 718 is underrated on this board. My wife has a 718 Boxster, and it is a hoot to drive. Like all mid-engine Porsches, in steers and handles beautifully-- better than practically anything else on the road save for a 911. Sure, the noise from the four cylinder is less pleasing than the old six, and if that's the most important thing, then forget the 718. But what car under $75,000 delivers this much enjoyment, or mirrors the older, smaller, less powerful 911's better?
10-31-2020, 03:32 AM
#68
The new 992 is a fabulous car. Very fast, very capable, very much a status symbol. If you have 150 or 200k to spend, there are a lot of new cars out there today that are very fast, very capable and are very much a status symbol.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Last edited by aircooledpurist; 10-31-2020 at 03:36 AM.
10-31-2020, 08:07 AM
#70
Rennlist Member
I agree with those who have said that the 718 is what OP is asking for. To be specific, the GTS 4.0 models are exactly what he describes (with the exception of the arguably superior mid-engine layout). Tossable, naturally aspirated, smaller. About as pure a sports car as one can buy in 2020. Buy one and put a heavy suitcase in the trunk if you want a small 911. The extra 15 hp over a base 911 will be more than enough to compensate for that.
Last edited by ldamelio; 10-31-2020 at 08:14 AM.
10-31-2020, 08:28 AM
#71
The new 992 is a fabulous car. Very fast, very capable, very much a status symbol. If you have 150 or 200k to spend, there are a lot of new cars out there today that are very fast, very capable and are very much a status symbol.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Not going to disagree on the virtues of a classic Porsche. All of it is true. But owning an air cooled car is a serious commitment and a much different proposition than owning a modern water cooled car with a warranty that any basic Porsche dealer can service. In my opinion, you need to be mechanically savvy and have access to a top tier air cooled specialist and the capacity to spend exorbitant amounts of money if needed.
I love mine and will never sell it. But it's definitely not for everyone.
10-31-2020, 08:32 AM
#72
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The new 992 is a fabulous car. Very fast, very capable, very much a status symbol. If you have 150 or 200k to spend, there are a lot of new cars out there today that are very fast, very capable and are very much a status symbol.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Unfortunately, when Porsche stopped making hand built cars, who's doors closed with an unmistakable thunk and who's air cooled engines sounded like no other, who's steering was telepathic and who's character and charisma was undeniable.... modern Porsche cars stopped having a *soul*. The new cars accelerate and brake brilliantly, all the electronic wizardry masks the size and weight reasonably well. The stereo even pipes engine noise into the cabin.
Starting with the 996, every 'new' 911 has been Porsche number next. As soon as the next latest and greatest is released, the previous models just fade away, save for the most expensive examples. Why is this? Because the new cars have no soul.
The 993 is a very nice example because it is the most modern of the air cooled era. Properly specified and properly sorted, they are a perfect blend of analog and raw while not feeling at all like an antique. These cars exude character and possess a specialness that the modern cars can not begin to match. Nothing matches the drive of an air cooled 911.
That certainly does not mean the older vintage cars replace the new, modern, more technically advanced cars. The old cars certainly are not a substitute for that modern everyday driver. However, if you can afford a new 911, you can certainly find a nice example of an older air cooled car, pay the 15 or 20 grand to get it sorted and properly modded, and experience that smaller, lighter Porsche. You know, the ones that talk to you like your new, fast, expensive car never will.
I must say this post is not in any way a knock on the new cars. Things have just changed over the years.
Having experienced a lot of 911 generations, I don’t subscribe to the “new cars don’t have soul” nonsense. Of course, you’re also making a number of incorrect assertions. For example, the stereo isn’t responsible for engine noise in a modern 911 — it’s not a BMW.
“...not in any way knock on the new cars”, yet, that was your entire post. The holier than thou posture of some air cooled enthusiasts is some of the most laughable bull**** of Porsche culture.
I love every generation of the 911 and every generation improved on the prior generation, even the 996, which manages to be LIGHTER than the 993. Having experienced them all, the heritage and legacy is amazing, they all manage to feel like 911s.
Last edited by detansinn; 10-31-2020 at 08:36 AM.
10-31-2020, 12:14 PM
#73
A 993 is only about 10% lighter than the equivalent 992. 911s were never “lightweight” cars.
Having experienced a lot of 911 generations, I don’t subscribe to the “new cars don’t have soul” nonsense. Of course, you’re also making a number of incorrect assertions. For example, the stereo isn’t responsible for engine noise in a modern 911 — it’s not a BMW.
“...not in any way knock on the new cars”, yet, that was your entire post. The holier than thou posture of some air cooled enthusiasts is some of the most laughable bull**** of Porsche culture.
I love every generation of the 911 and every generation improved on the prior generation, even the 996, which manages to be LIGHTER than the 993. Having experienced them all, the heritage and legacy is amazing, they all manage to feel like 911s.
Having experienced a lot of 911 generations, I don’t subscribe to the “new cars don’t have soul” nonsense. Of course, you’re also making a number of incorrect assertions. For example, the stereo isn’t responsible for engine noise in a modern 911 — it’s not a BMW.
“...not in any way knock on the new cars”, yet, that was your entire post. The holier than thou posture of some air cooled enthusiasts is some of the most laughable bull**** of Porsche culture.
I love every generation of the 911 and every generation improved on the prior generation, even the 996, which manages to be LIGHTER than the 993. Having experienced them all, the heritage and legacy is amazing, they all manage to feel like 911s.
I'm really NOT knocking the newer cars. I happen to daily drive BMW's because they are, for my needs more practical than a new 911. My M3's, while wickedly fast and very capable, are digital appliances. I also have plenty of seat time in newer 911's and while they are awesome, they have become like any other (high end) car. When I get in my 993, there is no denying I am in an old school Porsche..... made at a time when engineering came first and cost didn't matter. If they stayed on that path they would have gone out of business. The truth is, when they started listening to the accountants, the cars have never been the same.
I don't think the 993 is the holy grail. I just think they are more special than the new cars will ever be. There is a reason they are trying to duplicate the 5 gauges with the analog tach and the digital rest of the dash. The 993's (and all the air cooled cars) have stood the test of time. Do you think in 2045 folks will be lusting over the 2021 992? I will reserve my thoughts.
Last edited by aircooledpurist; 10-31-2020 at 12:24 PM.
10-31-2020, 12:28 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
I'm really NOT knocking the newer cars. I happen to daily drive BMW's because they are, for my needs more practical than a new 911. My M3's, while wickedly fast and very capable, are digital appliances. I also have plenty of seat time in newer 911's and while they are awesome, they have become like any other (high end) car. When I get in my 993, there is no denying I am in an old school Porsche..... made at a time when engineering came first and cost didn't matter. If they stayed on that path they would have gone out of business. The truth is, when they started listening to the accountants, the cars have never been the same.
I don't think the 993 is the holy grail. I just think they are more special than the new cars will ever be. There is a reason they are trying to duplicate the 5 gauges with the analog tach and the digital rest of the dash. The 993's (and all the air cooled cars) have stood the test of time. Do you think in 2045 folks will be lusting over the 2021 992? I will reserve my thoughts.
I don't think the 993 is the holy grail. I just think they are more special than the new cars will ever be. There is a reason they are trying to duplicate the 5 gauges with the analog tach and the digital rest of the dash. The 993's (and all the air cooled cars) have stood the test of time. Do you think in 2045 folks will be lusting over the 2021 992? I will reserve my thoughts.
and yes... I’d gladly lust over a 992 as everything in 2045 will likely be fully electric.
10-31-2020, 12:43 PM
#75
