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I own an E30 M3 and have had several over the last 12 years. They weigh 2750lbs. with 195hp from a 2.3L 4. Considered by many as one of the best handling cars of all time. As Car and Driver said it is one of the 10 cars to drive before you die. That aside, with only 17K sold world-wide, it was a unique, one off, homogulation, hand built car made by BMW Motorsport. The E30M3 SIG always laments the fact that BMW no longer makes a car like it and never will. This will always be the case. The difference between Porsche and BMW is Porsche does care about the weight and size of their cars. The 911 is a unique car designed specifically as a sports car, not a production car modified to make it faster and handle better. As many have said, if you want a smaller, lighter 911, get an old one. If you want a warranty, get it restored by Porsche. You have options that E30M3 owners don't. We cannot get parts for our cars. BMW no longer supports them. Enjoy your 911 as Porsche will continue to support your car for many years, not toss it over the wall and tell you to scrap a piece of history.
Last edited by inastrangeland; 11-03-2020 at 12:33 PM.
I own an E30 M3 and have had several over the last 12 years. They weigh 2750lbs. with 195hp from a 2.3L 4. Considered by many as one of the best handling cars of all time. As Car and Driver said it is one of the 10 cars to drive before you die. That aside, with only 17K sold world-wide, it was a unique, one off, homogulation, hand built car made by BMW Motorsport. The E30M3 SIG always laments the fact that BMW no longer makes a car like it and never will. This will always be the case. The difference between Porsche and BMW is Porsche does care about the weight and size of their cars. The 911 is a unique car designed specifically as a sports car, not a production car modified to make it faster and handle better. As many have said, if you want a smaller, lighter 911, get an old one. If you want a warranty, get it restored by Porsche. You have options that E30M3 owners don't. We cannot get parts for our cars. BMW no longer supports them. Enjoy your 911 as Porsche will continue to support you car for many years, not toss it over the wall and tell you to scrap a piece of history.
There is something to be said for Porsche's long term car support. It's literally without peer in the industry.
Excellent perspective. My 993 has many of the same mods yours does, is perfectly sorted, and it is an amazing driving experience.
After reading the responses to this thread this morning, I took my car out for a spirited drive. The car just feels SO right on SO many different levels.
To the OP, who asked why Porsche doesn't make a smaller 911.... There was a time when Porsche DID make a smaller 911. The 993 is a point in the 911 evolution where the original recipe remained intact, but the car had been advanced to a point where it is comfortable and drivable even today.
The good news is you can still get one, and the cost of entry, while not cheap, is not all that bad. Spend 60k on a solid example (get the coupe), and figure that you will spend another 20k to get it perfectly sorted. That process should not be looked at as a burden, but rather a hobby, a passion for something you love. Join the PCA and frequent the 993 forum here on Rennlist. You will meet the nicest people. The ownership experience is very rewarding, and you will be amazed at how many people, young and old, recognize your car for the icon that it is.
Enjoy the drive!
OP here, I posted this question in September 2019. In the last year plus - I had shopped for a 964, 993 and 997 GT car.
I purchased a 997.2 GT3 car. It is a kind of a sweet spot IMO, feels analogue and special while still being newish and very dependable. Feels very different to newer GT cars due to heavy steering feel, heavy clutch, notchy shifter, not as planted on the front axle, all things that I really appreciate. I do feel like the mechanical controls allow me to have fun at slow speeds, which is very important to me. I sometime just rev match between 2nd, 3rd, 4th as I am stuck behind traffic on a highway.
That being said, all the Porsche's are special and it definitely depends on what you want to do with the car and how it works for your personal situation. I really like back-dated cars, air cooled, and all GT cars, just got to find the one that speaks to you.
If your reference point for "soul" is a 993, you've clearly never enjoyed a good Italian car. Just saying.
Quite the contrary. While I don't own an Italian car, one of my best lifelong friends owns a 2015 458 Ferrari spider. I have a LOT of seat time in that car (we have driven it from his home in CT to his home in Florida and back several times). It's awesome, as it should be for $275,000.... and THAT is just the tip of the iceberg because service is insane. The car sounds incredible when you get on it, it is really quick, very smooth and it is honestly hard to find fault. There is an annoying buzz in the dash he can not seem to find. The problem I have with the car is it is very pretentious, screaming "look at me". Personally that does not work for me, and for my money, I would feel much more comfortable in a new 992 targa, which I think is a very handsome car.
I'm not sure why folks on this forum feel they need to knock the 993. They are awesome cars, deserving of their storied reputation. They provide a raw and connected driving experience the modern cars simply can not match. I'm poking around the 992 board because I am considering buying one. Whether I go new when the time comes, or save a wheelbarrow of cash buying a depreciated used one with low miles if I find the right car remains to be seen. Modern day Porsches lose a LOT of value in the first three years, just look at the residual values Porsche puts on it's own cars when leasing. I would much rather use that depreciation to my advantage than take it on the chin.
My 993 is worth a little more with each passing year.
Last edited by aircooledpurist; 11-04-2020 at 02:20 AM.
Quite the contrary. While I don't own an Italian car, one of my best lifelong friends owns a 2015 458 Ferrari spider. I have a LOT of seat time in that car (we have driven it from his home in CT to his home in Florida and back several times). It's awesome, but it should be for $275,000.... and THAT is just the tip of the iceberg because service is insane. The car sounds incredible when you get on it, it is really quick, very smooth and it is honestly hard to find fault. There is an annoying buzz in the dash he can not seem to find. The problem I have with the car is it is very pretentious, screaming "look at me". Personally that does not work for me, and for my money, I would feel much more comfortable in a new 992 targa, which I think is a very handsome car.
I'm not sure why folks on this forum feel they need to knock the 993. They are awesome cars, deserving of their storied reputation. They provide a raw and connected driving experience the modern cars simply can not match. I'm poking around the 992 board because I am considering buying one. Whether I go new when the time comes, or save a wheelbarrow of cash buying a depreciated used one with low miles if I find the right car remains to be seen. Modern day Porsches lose a LOT of value in the first three years, just look at the residual values Porsche puts on it's own cars when leasing. I would much rather use that depreciation to my advantage than take it on the chin.
My 993 is worth a little more with each passing year.
Yes a 911 will lose a chunk of value in the first few years, but the residual values Porsche uses don’t reflect at all the retail market value of a used car. On my last leased 911 (I typically lease cars for a period and buy them outright at lease end) the difference between my lease buyout and what I sold it for privately was $38k. On a Cayman S, the difference between buyout and sale price was $14k...but after buyout we drove it another 3 years before selling it.
I don’t see anyone here knocking the 993; it’s recognized as an icon, but it’s not the only ‘90s and early-noughts era sports car with “feel” and “soul.” As discussed in the thread there are other cars from marques as storied as Porsche that are just as analog...many of them considerably cheaper to buy and some much less expensive to maintain. Like the 993, excellent examples of the early NSXs and e30 M3s are also appreciating, and might have more financial upside left in them than a 993. Heck, even low mileage bone stock first-year (1997) Type Rs have been trading at crazy prices, with one recently on BaT going for about 3x its original new price.
Yes a 911 will lose a chunk of value in the first few years, but the residual values Porsche uses don’t reflect at all the retail market value of a used car. On my last leased 911 (I typically lease cars for a period and buy them outright at lease end) the difference between my lease buyout and what I sold it for privately was $38k. On a Cayman S, the difference between buyout and sale price was $14k...but after buyout we drove it another 3 years before selling it.
I don’t see anyone here knocking the 993; it’s recognized as an icon, but it’s not the only ‘90s and early-noughts era sports car with “feel” and “soul.” As discussed in the thread there are other cars from marques as storied as Porsche that are just as analog...many of them considerably cheaper to buy and some much less expensive to maintain. Like the 993, excellent examples of the early NSXs and e30 M3s are also appreciating, and might have more financial upside left in them than a 993. Heck, even low mileage bone stock first-year (1997) Type Rs have been trading at crazy prices, with one recently on BaT going for about 3x its original new price.
I think NSX remains a good value, but I think e30 M3s have hit $100k+ valuation with moderate mileage cars.
Personally, I think modern engines nowadays are way better than they used to be. Like I said before, the main advantage of older cars is smaller size, better visibility and better steering feel.
My 993 is pretty raw, but it has been heavily modified. The irony is that a bone stock 993 is a relatively mature car with a sophisticated and docile rear multi-link. When they came out, the 993 was claimed by some to be a "grand tourer" and "soft". Sounds familiar? Of course, none of that is true but some things never change when it comes to new 911s.
Quite the contrary. While I don't own an Italian car, one of my best lifelong friends owns a 2015 458 Ferrari spider. I have a LOT of seat time in that car (we have driven it from his home in CT to his home in Florida and back several times). It's awesome, as it should be for $275,000.... and THAT is just the tip of the iceberg because service is insane. The car sounds incredible when you get on it, it is really quick, very smooth and it is honestly hard to find fault. There is an annoying buzz in the dash he can not seem to find. The problem I have with the car is it is very pretentious, screaming "look at me". Personally that does not work for me, and for my money, I would feel much more comfortable in a new 992 targa, which I think is a very handsome car.
I'm not sure why folks on this forum feel they need to knock the 993. They are awesome cars, deserving of their storied reputation. They provide a raw and connected driving experience the modern cars simply can not match. I'm poking around the 992 board because I am considering buying one. Whether I go new when the time comes, or save a wheelbarrow of cash buying a depreciated used one with low miles if I find the right car remains to be seen. Modern day Porsches lose a LOT of value in the first three years, just look at the residual values Porsche puts on it's own cars when leasing. I would much rather use that depreciation to my advantage than take it on the chin.
My 993 is worth a little more with each passing year.
I come from an Italian car background, less Ferrari and more your middle of the road Alfa/Fiat level. Funny thing about Ferrari's is that many Alfisti/Fiat people feel the same way about Ferrari's as you describe, indeed if you asked me what the most fun Italian car is to drive from the latter 1/2 of the 20th century I'd tell you a Fiat 500 - the Nuova from 1957, not the current one. Talk about a hoot: tail end charlie handling with an engine you need to wring the neck out of on every gearchange to keep up with traffic coupled with a crash box that makes heel and toe a joyful and necessary skill. Maybe followed by a Fiat 127, then maybe something like an Alfa Duetto. There are many good ones to choose from, but plenty of duds too! Modern Fiats and Alfa's are generally great too and with due deference to others here I've driven and owned a number but not an Alfa 4C. Ferrari? Maybe a 550 Maranello could find it's way into my garage, but nothing newer.
But I do think if you're looking at a modern do-everything sports car suited for today's conditions then a 992 is a great choice. It's just as great a car for the 2020's as the 993 was for the 90's, no the two are not the same and thank heavens for that.
I come from an Italian car background, less Ferrari and more your middle of the road Alfa/Fiat level. Funny thing about Ferrari's is that many Alfisti/Fiat people feel the same way about Ferrari's as you describe, indeed if you asked me what the most fun Italian car is to drive from the latter 1/2 of the 20th century I'd tell you a Fiat 500 - the Nuova from 1957, not the current one. Talk about a hoot: tail end charlie handling with an engine you need to wring the neck out of on every gearchange to keep up with traffic coupled with a crash box that makes heel and toe a joyful and necessary skill. Maybe followed by a Fiat 127, then maybe something like an Alfa Duetto. There are many good ones to choose from, but plenty of duds too! Modern Fiats and Alfa's are generally great too and with due deference to others here I've driven and owned a number but not an Alfa 4C. Ferrari? Maybe a 550 Maranello could find it's way into my garage, but nothing newer.
But I do think if you're looking at a modern do-everything sports car suited for today's conditions then a 992 is a great choice. It's just as great a car for the 2020's as the 993 was for the 90's, no the two are not the same and thank heavens for that.
Oh, I can confirm that the 4C is Italian soul turned up to 11. No sound deadening. No muffler. Turbo is behind your head. Manual steering rack. No infotainment nonsense. No active anything. The whole package is last generation supercar, genuine quick with older Ferrari vibes. Oh, and it weighs about 1000lbs less than any 911. While 3 pedal bigots get cranky about a DCT, it's a wicked fast and lightweight transmission that pairs very well with the 1.7l inline 4 turbo'd to hell and back -- allows you to keep it on the boost. The 4C is literally one of my favorite cars, price is no object. They're also in appreciation mode with values up substantially since production stopped -- Alfa lost money on every one and they're genuinely rare. An Elise and Exige can deliver similar experiences, but build quality of the Alfa is a different level and the 4C is substantially quicker out of the box. I've contemplated an "upgrade" with a 570s, 458, or V10 Lambo, but having experienced them, those cars just aren't as fun, or raw, as the little Alfa.
Oh, I can confirm that the 4C is Italian soul turned up to 11. No sound deadening. No muffler. Turbo is behind your head. Manual steering rack. No infotainment nonsense. No active anything. The whole package is last generation supercar, genuine quick with older Ferrari vibes. Oh, and it weighs about 1000lbs less than any 911. While 3 pedal bigots get cranky about a DCT, it's a wicked fast and lightweight transmission that pairs very well with the 1.7l inline 4 turbo'd to hell and back -- allows you to keep it on the boost. The 4C is literally one of my favorite cars, price is no object. They're also in appreciation mode with values up substantially since production stopped -- Alfa lost money on every one and they're genuinely rare. An Elise and Exige can deliver similar experiences, but build quality of the Alfa is a different level and the 4C is substantially quicker out of the box. I've contemplated an "upgrade" with a 570s, 458, or V10 Lambo, but having experienced them, those cars just aren't as fun, or raw, as the little Alfa.
Of course I was thinking of you as I wrote that line lol! My Alfisti friends who own 4C's love them just as much as you, whoever at Alfa/Fiat/FCA/whatever-they-were-called-at-the-time signed off on that business case did the world a favour for sure. Lovely picture too, maybe we'll cross paths sometime on the AlfaBB or an AROC event.
11-03-2020, 08:22 AM
