Why doesn't Porsche make a smaller 911?
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AlexCeres (10-29-2020)
09-25-2019, 08:09 PM
#48
Race Car
Porsche has a long history of losing money on "purist/minimalist" cars. The first was the original Speedster. After sales to racers and aficionados for a couple of years, they couldn't I've them away and finished the model run by stuffing "luxury/comfort" seats and trim. Then came the convertible D with a higher windshield and much more human and rain friendly top.
Another such car was the original 911 S, which sold alongside the more popular base T and the more robust E. Later on came the Carrera Club Sport (stripper with trick engine) and the Carrera RS America (just a stripper). All sold in small numbers when they were originally marketed, but their rarity secures a premium in today's "collector" market.
I would guess that the current 911 platform is so profitbley versatile (including sharing a lot with the 718, that it just makes more sense to continue to, (pick one ) milk it or keep satisfying its customer base, than to add another platform.
Another such car was the original 911 S, which sold alongside the more popular base T and the more robust E. Later on came the Carrera Club Sport (stripper with trick engine) and the Carrera RS America (just a stripper). All sold in small numbers when they were originally marketed, but their rarity secures a premium in today's "collector" market.
I would guess that the current 911 platform is so profitbley versatile (including sharing a lot with the 718, that it just makes more sense to continue to, (pick one ) milk it or keep satisfying its customer base, than to add another platform.
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AlexCeres (10-31-2020)
09-26-2019, 05:57 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
You knife your own baby, or the competition will (eventually) do it for you. Porsche has gone far too long without learning that lesson from Business 101.
09-26-2019, 09:13 AM
#50
Race Car
So Apple and Porsche don't get it and are doomed? Such incompetence! Whoda guessed?
09-26-2019, 08:22 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Apple does it right. When it's time to let their new product shine, they don't let the old product get in the way.
As for Porsche, I think their declining market share in the sports-car sector and (in many cases) actual sales figures speak for themselves. They threw the Boxster and Cayman under the bus to protect the almighty 911. How's that been working for them?
09-26-2019, 09:32 PM
#53
What sort of drugs did you have to take to get that from my post?
Apple does it right. When it's time to let their new product shine, they don't let the old product get in the way.
As for Porsche, I think their declining market share in the sports-car sector and (in many cases) actual sales figures speak for themselves. They threw the Boxster and Cayman under the bus to protect the almighty 911. How's that been working for them?
Apple does it right. When it's time to let their new product shine, they don't let the old product get in the way.
As for Porsche, I think their declining market share in the sports-car sector and (in many cases) actual sales figures speak for themselves. They threw the Boxster and Cayman under the bus to protect the almighty 911. How's that been working for them?
--- in short, the 911 is the building block of the Porsche brand.
Last edited by cr-997; 09-26-2019 at 10:19 PM.
09-27-2019, 05:52 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
911 sales were up 7.5% from 2017 to 2018 to almost 10,000, and are relatively flat for 2019...not bad considering a new model is just now reaching customers. The 911 is more profitable than the mid-engined cars, so of course that is what Porsche would rather sell to sports car customers.
09-27-2019, 06:27 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Who, exactly, has Porsche been losing market share to in the sports car sector?
911 sales were up 7.5% from 2017 to 2018 to almost 10,000, and are relatively flat for 2019...not bad considering a new model is just now reaching customers. The 911 is more profitable than the mid-engined cars, so of course that is what Porsche would rather sell to sports car customers.
911 sales were up 7.5% from 2017 to 2018 to almost 10,000, and are relatively flat for 2019...not bad considering a new model is just now reaching customers. The 911 is more profitable than the mid-engined cars, so of course that is what Porsche would rather sell to sports car customers.
Moving forward, they have jacked up Carrera pricing to levels previously reserved for the GTs. Not too surprising since GT cars were among the dominant models in the last sales cycle, largely responsible for the sales increase over the last couple of years.
Trouble is, the 992 isn't a GT car. It's as if they think the higher prices on the GT cars were the reason why people bought them. We'll see.
In terms of market share, the C7 wasn't even out when the 991 was launched. The sports car segment is a zero-sum game at this point, do the math.
As for moving 718 production out of Stuttgart for "extra capacity for the 911" as Porsche's press releases have stated.... yeah, right, I believe that happy crappy.
Last edited by Noah Fect; 09-27-2019 at 07:15 PM.
09-27-2019, 08:05 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
You didn't answer my question, but that's OK...it was rhetorical anyway.
Neither Corvette nor 911 have reached pre-recession levels. Post-recession, both peaked around 2014.
Neither Corvette nor 911 have reached pre-recession levels. Post-recession, both peaked around 2014.
10-29-2020, 11:01 PM
#57
The most stripped down version of the 991 is probably the 991R at 3020 lbs and anything substantially smaller or lighter will have to be designed as a new chassis ($$$).
It also has to adhere to modern standards of fuel efficiency etc..., so it will probably need to include EPAS. There goes much of your market who wants an old-school 911 driving experience with hydraulic (or even unassisted) steering.
In any case, my experience is that the people who really want an "old school 911" driving experience will settle for nothing less than an actual old school 911. Any modern design, even if it is the same size and weight as a 993 won't be received well, unless it is an exact carbon copy of it (which won't happen because of safety/emissions regulations).
Everyone says they want a "pure driving experience" and a "smaller, lighter" car, but I believe when push comes to shove, there won't be enough of a market for it. Just look at the Alpine A110 -- widely praised as a great driver's car, but they are looking at selling maybe 5000 units this year if they are lucky, and for Porsche, these sales figures really isn't enough to justify the development expense. Much easier to just build more GT3s
It also has to adhere to modern standards of fuel efficiency etc..., so it will probably need to include EPAS. There goes much of your market who wants an old-school 911 driving experience with hydraulic (or even unassisted) steering.
In any case, my experience is that the people who really want an "old school 911" driving experience will settle for nothing less than an actual old school 911. Any modern design, even if it is the same size and weight as a 993 won't be received well, unless it is an exact carbon copy of it (which won't happen because of safety/emissions regulations).
Everyone says they want a "pure driving experience" and a "smaller, lighter" car, but I believe when push comes to shove, there won't be enough of a market for it. Just look at the Alpine A110 -- widely praised as a great driver's car, but they are looking at selling maybe 5000 units this year if they are lucky, and for Porsche, these sales figures really isn't enough to justify the development expense. Much easier to just build more GT3s
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AlexCeres (10-29-2020)
10-29-2020, 11:45 PM
#58
Racer
I feel of people want a "smaller" 911 they can buy an old 911 or maybe a newer T.
911 doesn't have to be for everyone and it isn't. Many people buy the Boxster/Cayman for those exact reasons. The 718 is the "smaller" car.
I'm not trying to compare a 718 to a 911 but if porsche made a small less horsepower 911 say goodbye to 718 sales.
911 doesn't have to be for everyone and it isn't. Many people buy the Boxster/Cayman for those exact reasons. The 718 is the "smaller" car.
I'm not trying to compare a 718 to a 911 but if porsche made a small less horsepower 911 say goodbye to 718 sales.
10-30-2020, 06:45 AM
#59
If this model were to exist, it would need to be more expensive, not less, to avoid cannibalization. I doubt there is enough demand at the higher price point but depends how easily they could modify the 911 platform to make it work.
While safety regulations would be a challenge, I don't think it's a deal breaker. If Mazda can make the Miata work, don't see any reason Porsche would be incapable.
While safety regulations would be a challenge, I don't think it's a deal breaker. If Mazda can make the Miata work, don't see any reason Porsche would be incapable.
10-30-2020, 08:53 AM
#60
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
A given 992 weighs 10% more than the equivalent air cooled 993 and that’s despite all of the additional safety regulations, emissions controls, liquid cooling, and turbos. To be honest, that’s a triumph in packaging on Porsche’s part, while simultaneously delivering performance on a different planet.
Yes, the cars are lower and wider — I am not entirely sure that’s a problem. Set aside the narrow body cars, there’s almost no dimensional difference between the 992 and 991.
The trope that the cars have somehow gotten huge and heavy is overblown hyperbole.
Is the 911 now a GT car? Nope. It’s very much a sports car. It just happens to be one that can deliver GT-like comfort. If you hop in a true modern GT car, you quickly realize that they’re much quieter and more compliant than a 911. The 911 is a sports car.
As for the 718, almost no one cared about that car here in the states. You need to look no further than historic miserable sales numbers. Things were so bad that Porsche had to revert to dropping an NA six cylinder back in the car. They’re fine cars, but the 6cyl versions are now at 911 money, do you want a 718 or 911? By the current sales numbers, the answer is pretty clear there.
Yes, the cars are lower and wider — I am not entirely sure that’s a problem. Set aside the narrow body cars, there’s almost no dimensional difference between the 992 and 991.
The trope that the cars have somehow gotten huge and heavy is overblown hyperbole.
Is the 911 now a GT car? Nope. It’s very much a sports car. It just happens to be one that can deliver GT-like comfort. If you hop in a true modern GT car, you quickly realize that they’re much quieter and more compliant than a 911. The 911 is a sports car.
As for the 718, almost no one cared about that car here in the states. You need to look no further than historic miserable sales numbers. Things were so bad that Porsche had to revert to dropping an NA six cylinder back in the car. They’re fine cars, but the 6cyl versions are now at 911 money, do you want a 718 or 911? By the current sales numbers, the answer is pretty clear there.