Car and driver rated the Audi s4 the winner beating the e46 m3. It wasn’t universally loved at the time believe me.

I owned the e36, e46, as well as the b6 Audi s4 so I can tell you that the e46 was heavy and had more body roll than the e36 which was one of my favorite cars of all time.

edit: Here is the 2003 article:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...parison-tests/

"How could a legend finish second here, back from first place by a wide six-point gap? The short answer is, competition keeps everybody honest, even legends. Audi came up with a better answer."
"Out on the twisty roads, the S4 quickly became the favorite. "
" Of this trio, the S4 is in a class by itself, scoring the full 10 points in our handling rating, two above the M3 and three above the C32. It also earned a 10 in fun to drive, decisively above the others."

"Magazines always say car x is universally loved but not best anymore" is a ploy to sell more magazines, which in our current world is more clicks.

 

A GT3 residual isn't completely BS. Porsche knows they're going to sell every model they produce and so looks at it as a way to make additional profit for anyone stupid enough to lease one.

The base Carrera models are a different story. Why would 992s be different than any regular Carrera over the last 15 years? They were spot on with the 991.1 and your own example of the 991.2 demonstrates they were basically spot on their too. Your Autotrader no-story 2017 C2S is going for 91k asking at a dealer with only 8000 miles. What do you think the owner of that car would have got if it had 30?

You keep insisting I'm wrong. How much less than 41% do you think the 992 owner with 30k miles is going to lose when they go to trade 3 years from now? I'm not claiming that heavy Carrera depreciation is a 992 exclusive symptom but with all the mention it gets around here whenever the word McLaren is uttered it's worth pointing out.

 

I'm not sure how an Audi S4 that was released years later being regarded as superior supports the idea that the e46 was panned. I haven't driven either one but would expect a 2-year newer design to prevail in most magazines.

No one knows what's going to happen with the 992 reputation in 15-20 years since what comes next plays a big part in that but I do know that the PCM screen is going to look like an outdated technological turd and from what I could tell it's gonna be difficult or impossible to replace since systems are integrated into it. For my 991, I'm already prepped with my OEM shelf.

 

OK, so you agree that lease residual values are manipulated and not necessarily a real indicator of future value/depreciation. That is not what you stated previously.
My point is that the 992 will follow the same depreciation curve as the 991.2. The 991.2 has retained a lot more than 59% of its value in 3 years...more like 70%. Better than average for a $100k+ vehicle.
Actually you did. Here is your original statement that prompted my response:

 

We're getting way off the subject now, but I had a 1996 E36 M3, 2002 E46 M3, and 2005 S4 Avant as well. The E46 was the least satisfying to drive. Understeered terribly, with extremely intrusive stability control. Sounded like a chainsaw. Brakes sucked...glad BMW had free maintenance back then...went through them like crazy. Shifter was all over the place. I didn't like it as much as the C43 AMG it replaced. That said, I still think it is a gorgeous car and still love the interior layout, and most of its issues have been addressed by the aftermarket. That S4 tho...

 

You seem to imply that the 992 is bloated and even more so due do the widened rear end... and yet you think the 991 cars are finally proportionate with the widened rear end. Is the 992 now wider than a 991 GT3 or a 991 Carrera 4 variant? Is there no performance gain to be had by widening the rear? If not, then why did they engineer the 991 GT cars with a widened rear? For that matter, how does Singer mange to sell those 964's with the widened rear haunches?

 

That's not what I am saying. I commented a response to the other post that the E46 was not universally panned or universally loved vs its contemporaries.

 

It would seem as though you are implying that Porsche may regard a certain segment of it's GT3 customer base as 'stupid' (those who may choose to lease)... and that Porsche is attempting to take advantage of that segment through lease calculations? Perhaps I misinterpreted.

 

Thats where your veering off topic, I never said anything about the e46 vs it’s competitors. I was merely attempting to point out that the e46 M3 was generally considered to be better than its predecessor by a wide margin. I was attempting to draw a parallel to the 991 vs 992 where this is NOT happening.

I’ve owned, worked on and been around examples of both cars for almost 20 years. It was and still is no contest for me as to which one is better nor was the comparison between the e36 or e46 vs B5 or B6 S4’s which are completely different vehicles.

While we’re on the subject of the e46 m3 vs b6 s4 take a look at which car has stood the test of time and how it’s been regarded with climbing prices, extremely competitive (to this day) track day and race car conversions and continued massive enthusiast following.

Meanwhile, the only thing most of the few surviving b6 S4’s are climbing is the back of a flat bed truck.

Time has not been kind to the S4 or virtually any later VW / Audi products for that matter and with the 992 being the first 911 generation conceived , developed and produced under complete VW ownership I predict the same.

 

I see, it's my fault now. Ok, I know when goal posts are being moved.

 

Brutal.

 

How do the french say savage?

 

Which is a little weird given the photo of Mr Depp in the background

 

Indeed. Even after driving a Cayman/Boxster, it feels large. Which even furthers the point, as the 991 is a lot smaller than most other sports cars coming out today. It actually starts to feel compact and go-karty when driven back to back with said larger sports cars (while it can feel like a sports sedan compared to a Boxster or old 911). Someone mentioned the 992 rear haunches will be rock magnets and are likely for cost saving rather than a "feature" and I have to agree. The standard 991 hips are already very wide, and plenty rock magnet as it is. The 992 hips will be brutalized. As well, the standard 991 hips are already wider than the widest 997 hips. I think Porsche used the standard widebody on the 992 simply to ease production.

From what I recall, the E46 has been the M3 benchmark and hailed as the ultimate 3-box (sedan based) sports car since the day it launched. The E92 and F80 always compared to, and considered to fail in keeping up with its legacy. I wasn't deeply involved in the BMW circle back when the E46 came out, but from my perspective on a more universal enthusiast scale, I remember it being the holy grail since go. Only knock to it has always been the horrendous sound.

 

The 992 and its corresponding highest Carrera price ever, simply following the 991.2's steep curve will probably depreciate higher than any model made before it. I'm not sure what was wrong about that statement. To clarify though, I don't really think the 992 will depreciate at a higher % rate than equivalent 991.2 standard model Carreras which I'm not a huge fan of either. The Carrera T was perhaps the most overrated car I've ever driven - far more overrated than a 992. I do think the parts-special T model will hold value better than a 992 though and likely was the better buy at the time.

You can get a 3 year old 991.2 at a dealer for 70% of the original price with significantly less than 30k miles. A 130k car at 91k = 30% drop. There's numerous examples to choose from on Autotrader in that same range. Obviously that's not the price the original buyer is likely to get trading in that same car with 30k miles. It might not make it all the way to 41% but the 991.2 has not retained 70% residual value for the original buyers (in fairness, since they probably got a discount on the new price it probably is about 70% what they actually paid but discount isn't factored into residual).