EVO's 992 Assessment
08-21-2019, 11:15 AM
#166
One thing I don't see many people talking about is the fact that you're forced with the wider rear on the 992. Am I the only one who DOESN'T want a wider 911? One of my favorite parts of my 991 is that it's so lithe and compact on the road and in parking spots, etc. And even it is quite wide, especially with those thick haunches. Last thing I personally want is a wider footprint at the rear. Anyone who's reviewed the 991 2WD and 4WD back to back mentions how apparent the added width out back is.
08-21-2019, 11:16 AM
#167
08-21-2019, 11:31 AM
#168
One thing I don't see many people talking about is the fact that you're forced with the wider rear on the 992. Am I the only one who DOESN'T want a wider 911? One of my favorite parts of my 991 is that it's so lithe and compact on the road and in parking spots, etc. And even it is quite wide, especially with those thick haunches. Last thing I personally want is a wider footprint at the rear. Anyone who's reviewed the 991 2WD and 4WD back to back mentions how apparent the added width out back is.
The 992 is a just big bloated car made more so by it's wide, rock magnet rear haunches that I truly believe were made standard on the base models as a cost cutting move instead of added value.
The e46 M3 is hands down the best M car ever produced in my opinion. Nothing else before of after it so perfectly combined the performance, experience, size, style and value. I'm not sure which 911 I would compare it to but can only add that at the time I was shopping for one circa 2005, used 996 values had dropped to the point of a direct comparison between the two for which there was none for me. The 996 was hands down the better sports car experience and value at that point.
Last edited by limegreen; 08-21-2019 at 11:59 AM.
08-21-2019, 12:43 PM
#169
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08-21-2019, 12:51 PM
#170
Let me start by saying that I am big fan of Steve Sutcliffe and typically place a lot of credence in what he says....but he is only one reviewer with one opinion. Amusingly, the written review in EVO by John Barker (the founding editor) came to a different conclusion,
Verdict: We can’t make a definitive judgement having not driven the 992 on the road but all the signs are that Porsche has made an even better GT that retains all the 911 character of the 991 gen car, and then some.
The comfort, performance and poise have all moved on versus the 991, and steering and brake feel are superb. Some of the details aren’t quite there; the pop-out door handles feel like an unnecessary complication, the 3D letters that sit on the ledge by the rear light strip spelling ‘Porsche’ seem a bit fancy, and there’s a lot of black plastic on show low down at both ends. Overall, though, the 992 feels like a solid, positive evolutionary step.
Three other reviewers I also equally respect are Chris Harris, Henry Catchpole and Matt Prior who all came to a different opinion that Steve. So take your pick. You can find a review that suits your bias.
However, in the end, the only opinion that really matters to me is my own and after 4 days on track (2 days at Leipzig and 2 days at the Nordschleife) in a 992 (which I suspect is more seat time on track than anybody else on this forum), I decided that I like it...a lot. Its a better car in quite a few areas compared to my 991.2 GTS but am I selling my 991.2 GTS to get one? No I am not. But I will sell it when the 992 GTS comes out.
Verdict: We can’t make a definitive judgement having not driven the 992 on the road but all the signs are that Porsche has made an even better GT that retains all the 911 character of the 991 gen car, and then some.
The comfort, performance and poise have all moved on versus the 991, and steering and brake feel are superb. Some of the details aren’t quite there; the pop-out door handles feel like an unnecessary complication, the 3D letters that sit on the ledge by the rear light strip spelling ‘Porsche’ seem a bit fancy, and there’s a lot of black plastic on show low down at both ends. Overall, though, the 992 feels like a solid, positive evolutionary step.
Three other reviewers I also equally respect are Chris Harris, Henry Catchpole and Matt Prior who all came to a different opinion that Steve. So take your pick. You can find a review that suits your bias.
However, in the end, the only opinion that really matters to me is my own and after 4 days on track (2 days at Leipzig and 2 days at the Nordschleife) in a 992 (which I suspect is more seat time on track than anybody else on this forum), I decided that I like it...a lot. Its a better car in quite a few areas compared to my 991.2 GTS but am I selling my 991.2 GTS to get one? No I am not. But I will sell it when the 992 GTS comes out.
08-21-2019, 01:19 PM
#171
Or perhaps then your memory isn't what it used to be.....
I was deeply involved with BMW when the e46 M3 debuted and can assure you that it was at minute one considered the best M3 ever and that extremely popular opinion hasn't changed since. Reference any major car magazine from that time or the last 18 years of articles/videos for confirmation that you are way off base with a comment like that.
I'll even give you a head start:
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...2001-bmw-m3-2/
"Brag all you want about the last BMW M3. Hey, we sure did. Profess about its being the king of compact sport coupes/sedans. But the fact is that the previous E36-platform M3 gets flat-out trounced in just about every way by the new E46-based design. How? Thanks to a thrilling new 3.2L DOHC inline-six that delivers a sky-high 8000-rpm redline, 333 serious horsepower, and a torque curve flatter than Kansas. Don't forget its wider-track, larger-rubber, race-inspired brakes and redesigned suspension. Factor in a more aggressive look and upgraded interior appointments, and you begin to get an inkling of what the '01 M3 is all about."
https://www.bmwsportscar.com/bmw-m3-e46/
"But what if we told you the BMW M3 to buy is really the BMW E46 M3? Sold in the USA from 2001-2006, it is considered by us as the best BMW M3 ever made. While the 1st generation – the E30 – has a place in history, the BMW E46 M3 was able to take what was done before and take it to the greater heights."
08-21-2019, 01:48 PM
#172
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What I find funny is your attempt to question what my opinion was regarding something from two decades ago....
Or perhaps then your memory isn't what it used to be.....
I was deeply involved with BMW when the e46 M3 debuted and can assure you that it was at minute one considered the best M3 ever and that extremely popular opinion hasn't changed since. Reference any major car magazine from that time or the last 18 years of articles/videos for confirmation that you are way off base with a comment like that.
I'll even give you a head start:
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...2001-bmw-m3-2/
"Brag all you want about the last BMW M3. Hey, we sure did. Profess about its being the king of compact sport coupes/sedans. But the fact is that the previous E36-platform M3 gets flat-out trounced in just about every way by the new E46-based design. How? Thanks to a thrilling new 3.2L DOHC inline-six that delivers a sky-high 8000-rpm redline, 333 serious horsepower, and a torque curve flatter than Kansas. Don't forget its wider-track, larger-rubber, race-inspired brakes and redesigned suspension. Factor in a more aggressive look and upgraded interior appointments, and you begin to get an inkling of what the '01 M3 is all about."
https://www.bmwsportscar.com/bmw-m3-e46/
"But what if we told you the BMW M3 to buy is really the BMW E46 M3? Sold in the USA from 2001-2006, it is considered by us as the best BMW M3 ever made. While the 1st generation – the E30 – has a place in history, the BMW E46 M3 was able to take what was done before and take it to the greater heights."
Or perhaps then your memory isn't what it used to be.....
I was deeply involved with BMW when the e46 M3 debuted and can assure you that it was at minute one considered the best M3 ever and that extremely popular opinion hasn't changed since. Reference any major car magazine from that time or the last 18 years of articles/videos for confirmation that you are way off base with a comment like that.
I'll even give you a head start:
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...2001-bmw-m3-2/
"Brag all you want about the last BMW M3. Hey, we sure did. Profess about its being the king of compact sport coupes/sedans. But the fact is that the previous E36-platform M3 gets flat-out trounced in just about every way by the new E46-based design. How? Thanks to a thrilling new 3.2L DOHC inline-six that delivers a sky-high 8000-rpm redline, 333 serious horsepower, and a torque curve flatter than Kansas. Don't forget its wider-track, larger-rubber, race-inspired brakes and redesigned suspension. Factor in a more aggressive look and upgraded interior appointments, and you begin to get an inkling of what the '01 M3 is all about."
https://www.bmwsportscar.com/bmw-m3-e46/
"But what if we told you the BMW M3 to buy is really the BMW E46 M3? Sold in the USA from 2001-2006, it is considered by us as the best BMW M3 ever made. While the 1st generation – the E30 – has a place in history, the BMW E46 M3 was able to take what was done before and take it to the greater heights."
But just commenting how time makes for strange bedfellows when it comes to how something is remembered, or viewed.
For example, while you are absolutely correct that MotorTrend back in 2002 when the E46 M3 debuted, crowned the car the best BMW M car ever, the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press. For example, this review by Top Gear called the 992 the "world's greatest sports car" which was echoed, almost word for word, by GT Spirit in this review.
The second review you cite from BMW Sports Car actually proves my point as it was written retrospectively in 2015, some nearly 15 years after the debut of the E46 M3.
I owned both a E30 and E46 M3 and was on Roadfly (remember them?) back in the day and the constant griping of the E46 when it debuted echoed much of what goes on here with the 992 vis-a-vis the 911, or with the introduction of any new model.
My only point is that retrospection can often distort what one's impression of a car is (or was) at the time it debuted.
08-21-2019, 02:17 PM
#173
Relax, no one is attacking your opinion.
But just commenting how time makes for strange bedfellows when it comes to how something is remembered, or viewed.
For example, while you are absolutely correct that MotorTrend back in 2002 when the E46 M3 debuted, crowned the car the best BMW M car ever, the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press. For example, this review by Top Gear called the 992 the "world's greatest sports car" which was echoed, almost word for word, by GT Spirit in this review.
The second review you cite from BMW Sports Car actually proves my point as it was written retrospectively in 2015, some nearly 15 years after the debut of the E46 M3.
I owned both a E30 and E46 M3 and was on Roadfly (remember them?) back in the day and the constant griping of the E46 when it debuted echoed much of what goes on here with the 992 vis-a-vis the 911, or with the introduction of any new model.
My only point is that retrospection can often distort what one's impression of a car is (or was) at the time it debuted.
But just commenting how time makes for strange bedfellows when it comes to how something is remembered, or viewed.
For example, while you are absolutely correct that MotorTrend back in 2002 when the E46 M3 debuted, crowned the car the best BMW M car ever, the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press. For example, this review by Top Gear called the 992 the "world's greatest sports car" which was echoed, almost word for word, by GT Spirit in this review.
The second review you cite from BMW Sports Car actually proves my point as it was written retrospectively in 2015, some nearly 15 years after the debut of the E46 M3.
I owned both a E30 and E46 M3 and was on Roadfly (remember them?) back in the day and the constant griping of the E46 when it debuted echoed much of what goes on here with the 992 vis-a-vis the 911, or with the introduction of any new model.
My only point is that retrospection can often distort what one's impression of a car is (or was) at the time it debuted.
I understand your point, hindsight is always 20/20 to a certain degree but I have a fairly vivid memory and distinctly recall not only the press raving about the car but also just about everyone in the BMW community as well, perhaps outside of Roadfly. I'm not seeing anything close to the same with the 992... I see negative feelings towards the car almost everywhere except by those who stand to gain something from it.
From my perspective the only thing that truly elevates a car in hindsight is when it's successor disappoints and fails to deliver. When hope for the future is lost or realized to be less than we had hoped it's only natural to look backwards fondly.
Great cars are just like great movies, while you may not know at that moment sitting in the theater just how well regarded it will one day become, you still are able to recognize your experiencing something special. The e46 M3 was one of those instances in my experience.
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Noah Fect (08-21-2019)
08-21-2019, 02:41 PM
#174
E36 guys were talking **** about the e46 back in 1999. I remember because I was on the forums when I upgraded from an e36 to the new model. Same song and dance - too luxurious, big, isolated, etc.
The form factor change and turbocharging of the 911 happened with the 991. That ship has sailed. I can see arguing about the looks of the 992 vs 991, but practically speaking these are very similar cars.
Tiny sports cars are dead, never to return. Better to face that reality and do what the rest of us did — put up or shut up. Buy an old Porsche of your dreams and fix it up. Problem solved. Won’t be long before petrol engines are a memory, so we take what we can get.
The form factor change and turbocharging of the 911 happened with the 991. That ship has sailed. I can see arguing about the looks of the 992 vs 991, but practically speaking these are very similar cars.
Tiny sports cars are dead, never to return. Better to face that reality and do what the rest of us did — put up or shut up. Buy an old Porsche of your dreams and fix it up. Problem solved. Won’t be long before petrol engines are a memory, so we take what we can get.
08-21-2019, 03:06 PM
#175
08-21-2019, 03:09 PM
#176
08-21-2019, 03:19 PM
#177
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I understand your point, hindsight is always 20/20 to a certain degree but I have a fairly vivid memory and distinctly recall not only the press raving about the car but also just about everyone in the BMW community as well, perhaps outside of Roadfly. I'm not seeing anything close to the same with the 992... I see negative feelings towards the car almost everywhere except by those who stand to gain something from it.
From my perspective the only thing that truly elevates a car in hindsight is when it's successor disappoints and fails to deliver. When hope for the future is lost or realized to be less than we had hoped it's only natural to look backwards fondly.
Great cars are just like great movies, while you may not know at that moment sitting in the theater just how well regarded it will one day become, you still are able to recognize your experiencing something special. The e46 M3 was one of those instances in my experience.
From my perspective the only thing that truly elevates a car in hindsight is when it's successor disappoints and fails to deliver. When hope for the future is lost or realized to be less than we had hoped it's only natural to look backwards fondly.
Great cars are just like great movies, while you may not know at that moment sitting in the theater just how well regarded it will one day become, you still are able to recognize your experiencing something special. The e46 M3 was one of those instances in my experience.
08-21-2019, 03:21 PM
#178
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Looks like ~2,000 total sales across Europe in all of 2018. ~5,000 expected in 2019 if current trends continue. Porsche sold 8,200 718s in Europe in 2018, and trending towards ~7,250 in 2019.
But taken in a vacuum those numbers are meaningless.
Need to know days on the lot, price sold vis-a-vis list price, etc.
08-21-2019, 04:01 PM
#179
Rennlist Member
Porsche Financial Services set the 36 month residual for the 2018 GT3 at 56% for 5k miles/year...so 44% depreciation, significantly more than what you quoted for the 992. Given the GT3's history of excellent value retention, what is that other than a "made up completely BS residual"?
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frankchn (08-21-2019)
08-21-2019, 07:01 PM
#180
Relax, no one is attacking your opinion.
But just commenting how time makes for strange bedfellows when it comes to how something is remembered, or viewed.
For example, while you are absolutely correct that MotorTrend back in 2002 when the E46 M3 debuted, crowned the car the best BMW M car ever, the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press. For example, this review by Top Gear called the 992 the "world's greatest sports car" which was echoed, almost word for word, by GT Spirit in this review.
The second review you cite from BMW Sports Car actually proves my point as it was written retrospectively in 2015, some nearly 15 years after the debut of the E46 M3.
I owned both a E30 and E46 M3 and was on Roadfly (remember them?) back in the day and the constant griping of the E46 when it debuted echoed much of what goes on here with the 992 vis-a-vis the 911, or with the introduction of any new model.
My only point is that retrospection can often distort what one's impression of a car is (or was) at the time it debuted.
But just commenting how time makes for strange bedfellows when it comes to how something is remembered, or viewed.
For example, while you are absolutely correct that MotorTrend back in 2002 when the E46 M3 debuted, crowned the car the best BMW M car ever, the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press. For example, this review by Top Gear called the 992 the "world's greatest sports car" which was echoed, almost word for word, by GT Spirit in this review.
The second review you cite from BMW Sports Car actually proves my point as it was written retrospectively in 2015, some nearly 15 years after the debut of the E46 M3.
I owned both a E30 and E46 M3 and was on Roadfly (remember them?) back in the day and the constant griping of the E46 when it debuted echoed much of what goes on here with the 992 vis-a-vis the 911, or with the introduction of any new model.
My only point is that retrospection can often distort what one's impression of a car is (or was) at the time it debuted.
Oh the same tired old argument about how everyone always attacks the model and that over time they're proven wrong...
Not true with the 996 as can be seen by their values. Not true of the 997.1. Anyone here planning on rushing out to buy one of those in Carrera-derived form?
We could go on and on but I'm guessing no one's going to be proven wrong on criticizing the 992 either. Too many mortal sins with the platform. Not a big enough step forward for all the steps backward. We'll see if they can fix it with the .2 again or we'll just wait to buy it at a steep discount and hear what a great value it is in 15 years as interested parties debate buying it vs a new electric Accord. 992 owners will tell us - "yes, absolutely", "the maintenance is killer", or "make sure you check if X,Y,Z has already been done."
I don't remember a big negative outlook toward the E46 M3 as you're claiming either.
"the same can be said with the 992 911 today by the popular press"
Hardly...the guy from Top Gear who thinks the 992 is the world's greatest sportscar looks about like what you'd expect. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/stephen-dobie The entire review is horribly written, blabbering nonsense as well. Let me know when Chris Harris or someone respectable feels the same.