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The only car on the market today that qualifies as a modern day 911 from the 60s is an Alpine A110. it’s an absolutely brilliant car. Super lightweight, not overly powerful, agile handling, fantastic A to B.
No stick shift. I'd be interested if it had one.
Porsche should lighten the next gen Cayman in response.
I don't agree with everything you said here (see rk-d's points) but I like the way you said it - and I understand where you are coming from...
I got the same feeling after owning BMWs for decades - as they tried to cover every segment in the marketplace for sales numbers they lost much of their original intent and essence.
Owned a number of BMW M cars over the years the last three being 2000, 2003 manual M5’s and then the ‘06 V10, great engine but no stick (initial release) and the nannies started to take over - that is where they lost me, Had a number of 5/750’s after that , but they were daily barges - soul was gone. Loved my 997.2 S/MT saw the 992 coming with the Xbox video layout and jumped on a 991 GTS build while I could. The 991.2 is much more refined than the 997.2, has lost some of the intimacy and driving connection, feel each generation of technical evolution marginalizes the driver. Sure we go faster, safer, levels the playing field of drivers...it is the future. At some point I will put a 997.2 back in the garage for fun.
I don't agree with everything you said here (see rk-d's points) but I like the way you said it - and I understand where you are coming from...
I got the same feeling after owning BMWs for decades - as they tried to cover every segment in the marketplace for sales numbers they lost much of their original intent and essence.
Ironically, my daily driver is an M5 competition. I love it...as a daily driver. It's not really a sporting car, though it's got ridiculous power and grip. Fantastic for commuting, however.
The only car on the market today that qualifies as a modern day 911 from the 60s is an Alpine A110. it’s an absolutely brilliant car. Super lightweight, not overly powerful, agile handling, fantastic A to B.
Originally Posted by groundhog
Have you driven one? the back end is not that good when you push on - the Cayman 987 and on is far better.
The Alpine A110 is very much like the M2 and Focus RS - good at first blush and then as you work them, less so and then the reality sets in - the Alfa 4C is in the same bucket. The original 1M is also in the same bucket and that had a terrible chassis - couldn't believe how bad it was and yet people today talk of it as a classic. Its not.
I'm genuinely curious as to the reception and demand for the Alpine A110 in Europe (as we do not get it here in the US).
I know the press has received it well, but are people actually buying the Alpine A110? Or perhaps put it another way, has the Alpine A110 put a dent in the Cayman/Boxster sales?
Just from perusing the internet, it seems like the Alpine A110 suffers from the same fate that the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio did in the U.S. -- great press coverage, lousy sales.
Any info from the other side of the pond much appreciated.
I'm genuinely curious as to the reception and demand for the Alpine A110 in Europe (as we do not get it here in the US).
I know the press has received it well, but are people actually buying the Alpine A110? Or perhaps put it another way, has the Alpine A110 put a dent in the Cayman/Boxster sales?
Just from perusing the internet, it seems like the Alpine A110 suffers from the same fate that the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio did in the U.S. -- great press coverage, lousy sales.
Any info from the other side of the pond much appreciated.
Owned a number of BMW M cars over the years the last three being 2000, 2003 manual M5’s and then the ‘06 V10, great engine but no stick (initial release) and the nannies started to take over - that is where they lost me, Had a number of 5/750’s after that , but they were daily barges - soul was gone. Loved my 997.2 S/MT saw the 992 coming with the Xbox video layout and jumped on a 991 GTS build while I could. The 991.2 is much more refined than the 997.2, has lost some of the intimacy and driving connection, feel each generation of technical evolution marginalizes the driver. Sure we go faster, safer, levels the playing field of drivers...it is the future. At some point I will put a 997.2 back in the garage for fun.
We'll probably be selling our 997.2 next year. Let me know when you're ready to buy one.
Owned a number of BMW M cars over the years the last three being 2000, 2003 manual M5’s and then the ‘06 V10, great engine but no stick (initial release) and the nannies started to take over - that is where they lost me, Had a number of 5/750’s after that , but they were daily barges - soul was gone. Loved my 997.2 S/MT saw the 992 coming with the Xbox video layout and jumped on a 991 GTS build while I could. The 991.2 is much more refined than the 997.2, has lost some of the intimacy and driving connection, feel each generation of technical evolution marginalizes the driver. Sure we go faster, safer, levels the playing field of drivers...it is the future. At some point I will put a 997.2 back in the garage for fun.
Consider an E90 M3. Great chassis with a manic engine.
Owned a number of BMW M cars over the years the last three being 2000, 2003 manual M5’s and then the ‘06 V10, great engine but no stick (initial release) and the nannies started to take over - that is where they lost me, Had a number of 5/750’s after that , but they were daily barges - soul was gone. Loved my 997.2 S/MT saw the 992 coming with the Xbox video layout and jumped on a 991 GTS build while I could. The 991.2 is much more refined than the 997.2, has lost some of the intimacy and driving connection, feel each generation of technical evolution marginalizes the driver. Sure we go faster, safer, levels the playing field of drivers...it is the future. At some point I will put a 997.2 back in the garage for fun.
Nannies started to take over? Sounds like Porsche. And it sure as heck didn’t start with the 992.
Not sure why anyone would think a Lotus or Alfa qualifies as a modern version of what Porsche previously built - they aren't even close and they're priced cheaper than what a 993 cost new 25 years ago.
The closest thing to my 993 in terms of a modern vehicle is probably my GT3. I doubt the 992 GT3 will be any different.
That says a lot because while I love the GT3T, it is nothing like a 993.
Consider an E90 M3. Great chassis with a manic engine.
Glorious engine, but the car is 500 pounds too heavy.
Originally Posted by Porsch
That says a lot because while I love the GT3T, it is nothing like a 993.
There can be no such thing as a modern 993. Look at the nonexistent A pillars of the 993, the huge expanse of glass and low cowl and nose. A 993 wouldn’t come close to matching modern safety standards. A modern car will never have the sight lines and seating position of the older cars - and that’s a real part of the appeal. The 993 had an ancient body style for the 90s, never mind today.
When I saw the 41% Depreciation I thought the same thing. In fact a 2017 C2s is selling on Auto Trader
at an average price of $98k. So if you bought a 2017 C2s new in 2017 you probably paid, on average, $127k or less
( 992 C2s ave selling price has been $136k). So if you got $85k for your car the Depreciation was 33%.
If you sold it for the ave current selling price of $98k the Dep was 23%. So 41% is only for someone
leasing a Car for 36 mo who does not intend to keep the car. We all know that Porsche Leases are not
a great deal. But obviously for many people it works.
Asking prices have nothing to do with selling prices. Are you averaging in dealer asking prices? The residual is what Porsche needs to get for their car before they sell it to their dealer network who then marks it up to earn the dealer a profit.
The Porsche Financial 41% depreciation price that was given assumes 30k miles. I highly doubt the average mileage on Autotrader 2017 991.2 C2S's is 30,000. Most 911's simply aren't driven 10k miles per year.
Claiming Porsche leases are not a great deal and everyone knows that is false. Each deal needs to be looked at on its own merits. The Porsche lease I had in 2007 was a great deal - especially as the financial crisis hit. I saw what Porsche sold my car for and it was just over 6k below the residual. There's a lot of situations where leases are amazing e.g. when you're in an accident and can repair the car to standard and simply return it without worrying about trying to sell an accident-damaged Porsche.
Deduct ~10k for initial dealer asking-price markup over initial acquisition price and we're down to 88k with your numbers before we even correct for mileage. Are they CPO cars? Deduct a few thousand more for the dealer's cost in adding that.
If telling yourself you're gonna get full dealer asking price for your 992 when you sell it helps you enjoy your purchase more than I'll move out of the way.
Here's one from Autotrader. CPO. No stories. Roughly half the 30k miles. Dealer asking price + CPO. ...and I didn't cherry-pick. This isn't even close to the best deal available nor would it be the one I'd be calling about. Good luck to anyone attempting to pull "98k" for a private sale 30k mileage 2017 model right now.
Porsche hit me in the face with their door on my 2013 C2S; luckily I bought it as a year-old used car so the door wasn't made of solid wood. New standard 911's seem to depreciate at rates similar to McLaren.
Last edited by destaccado; 08-21-2019 at 07:41 AM.
So, 1:16 , Faster than a AMG GT S.
1.6 seconds faster than previous gen 991S with power kit, (That’s basically a GTS), which would cost pretty much the same, seems like a pretty good value to me. ��*♂️
The way they listed the 991's is odd. Firstly, "991.1 911 Carrera" is how the base model is titled, and "911 Carrera S Powerkit" doesn't signify whether it's a 991.1 or 991.2. I guess they assume we've seen their previous track tests therefore know which models they tested.
Originally Posted by limegreen
If you care to watch that video while applying more than the critical thinking skills of a robot you might also see that EVO is more or less saying the same...
I agree with you but what you might find odd coming from someone in their mid 30's is that while I obviously dislike the 992 and what it represents for the brand ( and car industry as a whole) I still maintain that the 996,997 gen cars still strongly represented the 911 concept and were worthy a evolution that still held rather tightly to the core principals of Ferry and Butzi and what a sports car meant to Porsche.
The 992 is a mishmash of too many things for too many people which completely compromises the 911's position with trendy style , needless tech overload and change for the mere sake of change.
This doesn't seem to bother those newer to the brand for obvious reasons and I suppose we can't or shouldn't change their minds but what I find curious is why they are so willing to defend the 992 when thier experience with the brand has been limited in many cases to only the last generation.
One thing I don't see many people talking about is the fact that you're forced with the wider rear on the 992. Am I the only one who DOESN'T want a wider 911? One of my favorite parts of my 991 is that it's so lithe and compact on the road and in parking spots, etc. And even it is quite wide, especially with those thick haunches. Last thing I personally want is a wider footprint at the rear. Anyone who's reviewed the 991 2WD and 4WD back to back mentions how apparent the added width out back is.
Asking prices have nothing to do with selling prices. Are you averaging in dealer asking prices? The residual is what Porsche needs to get for their car before they sell it to their dealer network who then marks it up to earn the dealer a profit.
The Porsche Financial 41% depreciation price that was given assumes 30k miles. I highly doubt the average mileage on Autotrader 2017 991.2 C2S's is 30,000. Most 911's simply aren't driven 10k miles per year.
Claiming Porsche leases are not a great deal and everyone knows that is false. Each deal needs to be looked at on its own merits. The Porsche lease I had in 2007 was a great deal - especially as the financial crisis hit. I saw what Porsche sold my car for and it was just over 6k below the residual. There's a lot of situations where leases are amazing e.g. when you're in an accident and can repair the car to standard and simply return it without worrying about trying to sell an accident-damaged Porsche.
Deduct ~10k for initial dealer asking-price markup over initial acquisition price and we're down to 88k with your numbers before we even correct for mileage. Are they CPO cars? Deduct a few thousand more for the dealer's cost in adding that.
If telling yourself you're gonna get full dealer asking price for your 992 when you sell it helps you enjoy your purchase more than I'll move out of the way.
Here's one from Autotrader. CPO. No stories. Roughly half the 30k miles. Dealer asking price + CPO. ...and I didn't cherry-pick. This isn't even close to the best deal available nor would it be the one I'd be calling about. Good luck to anyone attempting to pull "98k" for a private sale 30k mileage 2017 model right now.
Porsche hit me in the face with their door on my 2013 C2S; luckily I bought it as a year-old used car so the door wasn't made of solid wood. New standard 911's seem to depreciate at rates similar to McLaren.
Maybe you did not understand what I said about Depreciation. I did not say that anyone could get the $98k asking price on Auto trader. If you read what I said
i used, in my example, $85k to come up with a Depreciation number all the way up to the full asking price. I was just saying 41% Depreciation is only for a Leased
car.
08-20-2019, 04:01 PM
