GT3 Rumors
01-25-2019, 04:39 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
I would love it if they kept the lighter 7 speed PDK for the GT3, but I don't count on it.
01-25-2019, 05:15 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
Wrong direction.
350hp, 2500lb, 9500rpm, NA, manual, or I'm out -- as I have been since the 996.2 GT3.
Pages and pages of nail-biting commiserations and predictions about 3% HP increases and Ring-times in ever porkier 500hp+ cars followed by complaints in other threads about not being able to get out of 2nd gear on a back-road without going to jail or killing somebody. I'll enjoy wringing out my 280hp 987.1 Boxster S all the way to 4th, instead. Is Spring here yet?
350hp, 2500lb, 9500rpm, NA, manual, or I'm out -- as I have been since the 996.2 GT3.
Pages and pages of nail-biting commiserations and predictions about 3% HP increases and Ring-times in ever porkier 500hp+ cars followed by complaints in other threads about not being able to get out of 2nd gear on a back-road without going to jail or killing somebody. I'll enjoy wringing out my 280hp 987.1 Boxster S all the way to 4th, instead. Is Spring here yet?
01-25-2019, 05:23 PM
#108
The Cup makes 485hp. Ok. The 991.2 GT3RS is listed at 513bhp but is likely underrated per usual Porsche.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorspo...s/911-gt3-cup/
Yes, the RS and GT3 use this motor almost without modification. I'd love to hear how you think this motor is capable of 115hp more than a Cup. Revised intake, revised exhaust, and tune. Plus the RS has the ram air intakes that the Cup doesn't.
The article you posted quotes AP as saying "In racing trim, if allowed to run without air restrictors, the engine could make more than 600bhp." I've addressed this already.
It also says the maximum the motor could make in its stock spec is 523hp (still 77 hp shy of your claim). Wrong. The quote says,"the engine actually develops more power than is claimed and could have been homologated at 523bhp, but the company decided to err on the side of caution". It does not say that the maximum power that the engine could possibly make is 523bhp. It says that it could have been homologated at 523bhp. I have never stated this engine in its as delivered specification in the GT3RS makes 600bhp. It'll take some tweaks as mentioned. Intake, exhaust, and tune. Hell, it might also take enlarging the fender intakes or massaging the airflow into them.
Racing trim includes all the mods I mentioned above (as seen in RSR). That's what the last "R" means... So, you're just going to re-define what is and what isn't "racing trim"? A GT3 Cup or GT3R are not race cars? What does the "R" mean on the GT3RS?
The GT3R with its racing 6 throttle bodies and 9,400 rpm redline (and cams to benefit from it) makes 550hp... 1. Does the engine make max power at 9400rpm? Without seeing a dyno graph, I'd safely assume no. So, why does the rev limiter matter for the sake of this discussion? 2. How much power does the engine make with the air scoops on the fenders? Any ideas? Are the 6 ITBs magical "racing" throttle bodies or are they 6 ITBs? Could they not be used on a production vehicle?
https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorspo...s/911-gt3-cup/
Yes, the RS and GT3 use this motor almost without modification. I'd love to hear how you think this motor is capable of 115hp more than a Cup. Revised intake, revised exhaust, and tune. Plus the RS has the ram air intakes that the Cup doesn't.
The article you posted quotes AP as saying "In racing trim, if allowed to run without air restrictors, the engine could make more than 600bhp." I've addressed this already.
It also says the maximum the motor could make in its stock spec is 523hp (still 77 hp shy of your claim). Wrong. The quote says,"the engine actually develops more power than is claimed and could have been homologated at 523bhp, but the company decided to err on the side of caution". It does not say that the maximum power that the engine could possibly make is 523bhp. It says that it could have been homologated at 523bhp. I have never stated this engine in its as delivered specification in the GT3RS makes 600bhp. It'll take some tweaks as mentioned. Intake, exhaust, and tune. Hell, it might also take enlarging the fender intakes or massaging the airflow into them.
Racing trim includes all the mods I mentioned above (as seen in RSR). That's what the last "R" means... So, you're just going to re-define what is and what isn't "racing trim"? A GT3 Cup or GT3R are not race cars? What does the "R" mean on the GT3RS?
The GT3R with its racing 6 throttle bodies and 9,400 rpm redline (and cams to benefit from it) makes 550hp... 1. Does the engine make max power at 9400rpm? Without seeing a dyno graph, I'd safely assume no. So, why does the rev limiter matter for the sake of this discussion? 2. How much power does the engine make with the air scoops on the fenders? Any ideas? Are the 6 ITBs magical "racing" throttle bodies or are they 6 ITBs? Could they not be used on a production vehicle?
Do you seriously believe the load of monkey s-it you're preaching. AP meant that ONE of the motors ON a test bench hit 600hp before it exploded...probably at over 10,000 RPM. There is no other mechanical way besides (forced induction) to generate more power on NA motor.
"No other mechanical way to generate more power on a NA motor"? Is this a real statement? Um, yes there is. Higher compression ratio is one. Better flowing exhaust, improving the fuel burn, adjusting the tune, improving the intake design, adjusting the cam profiles, reducing friction, reducing mass, etc. There is a long list of things that can be done to improve a NA engine without an increase in displacement and the 4.0 in the GT3RS is not maxed out in these regards. As proven by the difference in power output between the GT3RS, the GT3R, and the RSR.
01-25-2019, 06:10 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
Pete, the 992 carrera front and rear tracks were widened, similar to 991 GT3 dimensions. Now that Porsche has gone all in with the wide body for all carreras, do you think they won't still use that for the 992 GT3? For the 992 RS, they'll use the 992 Turbo body, but I expect the 992 GT3 have close to the same body dimensions as the 992 Carrera and similar front/rear track dimensions as the 991 GT3, just 150lbs heavier, but now with the 991.2 RS engine.
Assuming the 992 GT3 gets the current 991.2 RS engine, I can see them gaining a few seconds on the Ring with that setup, but not that much more as the extra power of the 992 GT3 would be largely offset by the extra 150 lbs of 992 weight? And I'm sure they will tweak the 992 GT3 chassis further, but I wonder how much of what you noticed with the 992 carrera testing was just the extra stability of the wider tracks compared to your 991 Carrera T?
01-25-2019, 06:16 PM
#110
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
"Originally Posted by GrantG 
The Cup makes 485hp. Ok. The 991.2 GT3RS is listed at 513bhp but is likely underrated per usual Porsche.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorspo...s/911-gt3-cup/
Yes, the RS and GT3 use this motor almost without modification. I'd love to hear how you think this motor is capable of 115hp more than a Cup. Revised intake, revised exhaust, and tune. Plus the RS has the ram air intakes that the Cup doesn't.
The article you posted quotes AP as saying "In racing trim, if allowed to run without air restrictors, the engine could make more than 600bhp." I've addressed this already.
It also says the maximum the motor could make in its stock spec is 523hp (still 77 hp shy of your claim). Wrong. The quote says,"the engine actually develops more power than is claimed and could have been homologated at 523bhp, but the company decided to err on the side of caution". It does not say that the maximum power that the engine could possibly make is 523bhp. It says that it could have been homologated at 523bhp. I have never stated this engine in its as delivered specification in the GT3RS makes 600bhp. It'll take some tweaks as mentioned. Intake, exhaust, and tune. Hell, it might also take enlarging the fender intakes or massaging the airflow into them.
Racing trim includes all the mods I mentioned above (as seen in RSR). That's what the last "R" means... So, you're just going to re-define what is and what isn't "racing trim"? A GT3 Cup or GT3R are not race cars? What does the "R" mean on the GT3RS?
The GT3R with its racing 6 throttle bodies and 9,400 rpm redline (and cams to benefit from it) makes 550hp... 1. Does the engine make max power at 9400rpm? Without seeing a dyno graph, I'd safely assume no. So, why does the rev limiter matter for the sake of this discussion? 2. How much power does the engine make with the air scoops on the fenders? Any ideas? Are the 6 ITBs magical "racing" throttle bodies or are they 6 ITBs? Could they not be used on a production vehicle?"
Just a few quick points:
1. The engine power is rated at 0 mph on an engine dyno - no contribution of the ram-air to the rated power (otherwise the power would be different in each gear). Any additional power from Ram-Air is in addition to rated power.
2. IN RACING TRIM - I am happy to be more specific and state that I am assuming this means - in the "HIGHEST RACING TRIM." I believe this is necessary (RSR spec) to exceed 600hp. Not GT3R or any lower spec. It is not uncommon for the 911RSR various models to exceed 10,000 rpm.
3. GT3R - my point in showing that the redline is 9,400 rpm is to show that it makes more power at higher revs than the street car (or Cup). Those cars make max power at 8,250 and revving an additional 1,150 rpm above peak would not make sense in a race car with close ratio gearing. I am not saying that peak power is at 9,400 but it is likely at least 8,750 rpm (only possible because it uses a racing camshaft profile to continue making power well above the 8,250 peak of the lower spec motors). Also, I believe all of the racing motors (with possible exception of Cup) go without the Variocam variable camshaft timing, since the race cars never see low revs once on track at speed. Even a recent Cup did not have this (but I am not sure about current Cup). They use more aggressive cams than the GT3 or RS to achieve more power at higher revs.
4. Yes, no reason that you cannot use ITB's on a street car (I have one). In 1973, Porsche had ITB's with Mechanical Fuel Injection on 911T, 911E, 911S, Carrera RS 2.7, and Carrera RSR 2.8. But Porsche has not in 46 years made a street car for US with ITB's...
5. RS (literally Rennsport) in Porsche 911 speak means a street car with track day high capabilities. They add the R to make RSR to indicate true top level race car.
The Cup makes 485hp. Ok. The 991.2 GT3RS is listed at 513bhp but is likely underrated per usual Porsche. https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorspo...s/911-gt3-cup/
Yes, the RS and GT3 use this motor almost without modification. I'd love to hear how you think this motor is capable of 115hp more than a Cup. Revised intake, revised exhaust, and tune. Plus the RS has the ram air intakes that the Cup doesn't.
The article you posted quotes AP as saying "In racing trim, if allowed to run without air restrictors, the engine could make more than 600bhp." I've addressed this already.
It also says the maximum the motor could make in its stock spec is 523hp (still 77 hp shy of your claim). Wrong. The quote says,"the engine actually develops more power than is claimed and could have been homologated at 523bhp, but the company decided to err on the side of caution". It does not say that the maximum power that the engine could possibly make is 523bhp. It says that it could have been homologated at 523bhp. I have never stated this engine in its as delivered specification in the GT3RS makes 600bhp. It'll take some tweaks as mentioned. Intake, exhaust, and tune. Hell, it might also take enlarging the fender intakes or massaging the airflow into them.
Racing trim includes all the mods I mentioned above (as seen in RSR). That's what the last "R" means... So, you're just going to re-define what is and what isn't "racing trim"? A GT3 Cup or GT3R are not race cars? What does the "R" mean on the GT3RS?
The GT3R with its racing 6 throttle bodies and 9,400 rpm redline (and cams to benefit from it) makes 550hp... 1. Does the engine make max power at 9400rpm? Without seeing a dyno graph, I'd safely assume no. So, why does the rev limiter matter for the sake of this discussion? 2. How much power does the engine make with the air scoops on the fenders? Any ideas? Are the 6 ITBs magical "racing" throttle bodies or are they 6 ITBs? Could they not be used on a production vehicle?"
Just a few quick points:
1. The engine power is rated at 0 mph on an engine dyno - no contribution of the ram-air to the rated power (otherwise the power would be different in each gear). Any additional power from Ram-Air is in addition to rated power.
2. IN RACING TRIM - I am happy to be more specific and state that I am assuming this means - in the "HIGHEST RACING TRIM." I believe this is necessary (RSR spec) to exceed 600hp. Not GT3R or any lower spec. It is not uncommon for the 911RSR various models to exceed 10,000 rpm.
3. GT3R - my point in showing that the redline is 9,400 rpm is to show that it makes more power at higher revs than the street car (or Cup). Those cars make max power at 8,250 and revving an additional 1,150 rpm above peak would not make sense in a race car with close ratio gearing. I am not saying that peak power is at 9,400 but it is likely at least 8,750 rpm (only possible because it uses a racing camshaft profile to continue making power well above the 8,250 peak of the lower spec motors). Also, I believe all of the racing motors (with possible exception of Cup) go without the Variocam variable camshaft timing, since the race cars never see low revs once on track at speed. Even a recent Cup did not have this (but I am not sure about current Cup). They use more aggressive cams than the GT3 or RS to achieve more power at higher revs.
4. Yes, no reason that you cannot use ITB's on a street car (I have one). In 1973, Porsche had ITB's with Mechanical Fuel Injection on 911T, 911E, 911S, Carrera RS 2.7, and Carrera RSR 2.8. But Porsche has not in 46 years made a street car for US with ITB's...
5. RS (literally Rennsport) in Porsche 911 speak means a street car with track day high capabilities. They add the R to make RSR to indicate true top level race car.
01-25-2019, 06:18 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
Wrong direction.
350hp, 2500lb, 9500rpm, NA, manual, or I'm out -- as I have been since the 996.2 GT3.
Pages and pages of nail-biting commiserations and predictions about 3% HP increases and Ring-times in ever porkier 500hp+ cars followed by complaints in other threads about not being able to get out of 2nd gear on a back-road without going to jail or killing somebody. I'll enjoy wringing out my 280hp 987.1 Boxster S all the way to 4th, instead. Is Spring here yet?
350hp, 2500lb, 9500rpm, NA, manual, or I'm out -- as I have been since the 996.2 GT3.
Pages and pages of nail-biting commiserations and predictions about 3% HP increases and Ring-times in ever porkier 500hp+ cars followed by complaints in other threads about not being able to get out of 2nd gear on a back-road without going to jail or killing somebody. I'll enjoy wringing out my 280hp 987.1 Boxster S all the way to 4th, instead. Is Spring here yet?
A simple and modern RWD sports car with 250-350 hp @ at 2500-2750 lbs done in the Porsche way is the sports car I dream about. Trick is, what do they build it on? 718/992 is too sophisticated, and has to be.
01-25-2019, 06:52 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
^ Preach it. Been saying this for years. I think it would be so much cooler if, rather than 3% (or even 10%!) power gains, we were amazed each time with lighter curb weights, no matter how little. We got that for a while in the march from 964 through 996/997, but it wasn't as easy as all of us think in the 991 era, and will be trickier still is if the basis has to be a 718 or 992 (and it does).
A simple and modern RWD sports car with 250-350 hp @ at 2500-2750 lbs done in the Porsche way is the sports car I dream about. Trick is, what do they build it on? 718/992 is too sophisticated, and has to be.
A simple and modern RWD sports car with 250-350 hp @ at 2500-2750 lbs done in the Porsche way is the sports car I dream about. Trick is, what do they build it on? 718/992 is too sophisticated, and has to be.
Come to think of it, the 987 Spyder was almost there. They should have just continued the good trend from there.
01-27-2019, 11:58 PM
#114
unfortunately its not built by Porsche The next GT4/Spyder will be as close as Porsche get to a light weight driver focussed sports car.
01-28-2019, 12:18 AM
#115
Rennlist Member
The co-founder of 000 ordered a GT4 when I ordered mine, back in 2015. We took delivery within a few months of each other, but then he called to say he was selling to buy…an Evora 400. I thought he was crazy, and told him so. This, after driving an Evora S (was impressed in some regards, primarily with the chassis, but not in others).
Then I drove his 400…
Wow.
I suspect you are right, but hold out hope…remember when the 911 was doomed? And the manual gearbox?
Then I drove his 400…
Wow.
01-28-2019, 02:01 AM
#116
If you ever get the chance - try a Lotus 430 Cup, it will put a smile on your face. If Porsche took that car and rebuilt it from the ground up it would be a brilliant reliable sports car.
430HP, 2,350lbs and manual
430HP, 2,350lbs
and manual
01-28-2019, 11:32 AM
#118
Rennlist Member
^ Preach it. Been saying this for years. I think it would be so much cooler if, rather than 3% (or even 10%!) power gains, we were amazed each time with lighter curb weights, no matter how little. We got that for a while in the march from 964 through 996/997, but it wasn't as easy as all of us think in the 991 era, and will be trickier still is if the basis has to be a 718 or 992 (and it does).
A simple and modern RWD sports car with 250-350 hp @ at 2500-2750 lbs done in the Porsche way is the sports car I dream about. Trick is, what do they build it on? 718/992 is too sophisticated, and has to be.
A simple and modern RWD sports car with 250-350 hp @ at 2500-2750 lbs done in the Porsche way is the sports car I dream about. Trick is, what do they build it on? 718/992 is too sophisticated, and has to be.
01-28-2019, 12:01 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
Counterpoint: with the assumption that such a car would need to be 718 sized at 2500 cw and in a business with limited production capacity such a car would not yield as high a net profit even with identical margin % for Porsche. So from a business decision POV this would not pass muster. hindsight bias in full effect of course. and GT4 comes pretty close though.
I went down the "more lightness = better" road which inevitably ends with Lotus. I drove a few (Elise, Exige). Sure, they are light and pure but they were not Porsche. I still enjoy my Boxster on back-roads more, despite its added weight.
01-28-2019, 12:05 PM
#120
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Maybe check with Singer on that one. He seems to have no problem selling high-quality, lightweight Porsches for $750k -- with a 3yr wait-list, too. I bet Porsche could make quite a profit if it tried smth similar at 1/5 of the price. Maybe just buy the company and streamline production for 10x production at 1/5 the price. They can base it off of any current or recent (retired) chassis -- just upgrade with interior, suspension, and CF panels, like Singer does. Singer is proof that there's a large latent demand for quality Porsche lightness. Why doesn't Porsche listen?
Put it this way, do you think we here at RL are all smarter than the folks at PAG, one of the most profitable car companies in the world?