GT3 Rumors
01-22-2019, 03:12 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
I am with you on that! Would never buy car with lift system. Can buy 10 chin spoilers for the same price and why have more things that can break!
01-22-2019, 08:06 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
as the current 992 transmission has room for hybrid components.. and GT3 is unabashedly an NA offering, i'll shoot a premature spray across the bow, FXZ style.. and say it's "CONFIRMED" that GT3 will NOT go turbo. It's quite logical in fact to see that 992.2 could go hybrid-NA.. just with a small battery to help with torquefill and possible 50 or so extra HP, while still keeping to a glorious 9000rpm + redline. If you've ever driven a 918 spyder, you will understand the incredible driving experience of this drivetrain.. you get ALL the NA sound, with ALL the NA throttle response, but with a massive dollop of low and midrange torque, with the NA engine fully focused on taking care of the top-end. I've had the pleasure of hustling both 918 and 918 Weissach's around a few tracks, and aside from the considerable weight of the car felt under certain braking situations.. it was simply otherworldly. Porsche would not have put this much development money into hybrid if this weren't the plan for trickle-down into other cars. 992.2 will be NA-hybrid, if you connect the dots, you will know this to be true.
However I still expect the entire 992 GT3 line to stay NA only, because 1-its the big top dog RS that gets the fanciest new tech and 2- the RS is PDK-only anyway. 3- Porsche knows its customers still want a 911 variant for the driving enthusiast, i.e. NA, RWD with manual option, but you can't do manual with the hybrid, and the hybrid weight also makes it less of a drivers car, so Porsche will continue to offer the 992.1 and 992.2 GT3s as NA only (but with same winged/touring, manual/PDK options).
Last edited by Drifting; 01-23-2019 at 02:04 PM.
01-23-2019, 10:26 AM
#64
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
GT3RS initial info to remain "Naturally Aspirated."
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
LINK:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post15586627
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
LINK:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post15586627
01-23-2019, 01:59 PM
#65
Porsche builds car to pass international sound, emissions, and fuel consumption limitations while being compatible with crappy pump fuel quality. While I'll reserve judgment about whether the above Dundon modifications are sufficient to exceed 600hp (+100hp compared to .2 GT3 on same dyno) without increasing displacement (very skeptical), I can say with full confidence that they cannot with the above limitations faced by Porsche and while keeping 4-year 50,000 mile warranty.
For reference, the brand new 911 GT3R factory race car has a very sophisticated intake with 6 individual throttle bodies and race exhaust with a 9,400 rpm redline (redline info from Guest89), comes with zero warranty, and is rated at 550hp without a restrictor (Click on "The Drive" or look at attachment):
https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/motorsport/customerracing/racingcars/991-2nd-gt3-r/
For reference, the brand new 911 GT3R factory race car has a very sophisticated intake with 6 individual throttle bodies and race exhaust with a 9,400 rpm redline (redline info from Guest89), comes with zero warranty, and is rated at 550hp without a restrictor (Click on "The Drive" or look at attachment):
https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/motorsport/customerracing/racingcars/991-2nd-gt3-r/
You should delete this post and hope that everyone who read it suffers from amnesia, or start over on RL with a new account.
The factory builds a 4.0 liter flat six that develops over 600 bhp with no sonic restrictor fitted; it's in the 911 RSR, which costs €991,000 plus spares, plus delivery (if Porsche will even sell you one).
A crate engine for the car is in the ~$250,000 range, per more than one person I know who works for the factory's operational partners (Core and Manthey).
Please reach out to Pascal Zurlinden (link below) right away and let him know that a small, independent shop in Washington state can deliver 600+ bhp in a street car while those second-rate losers who work for Porsche Motorsport can barely get that done with a blank check! It's too late for the Daytona 24, which is this weekend, but maybe they can get some help - or at least save a little money - before Sebring.
https://presskit.porsche.de/motorspo...c-gt-2018.html
+1
The factory builds a 4.0 liter flat six that develops over 600 bhp with no sonic restrictor fitted; it's in the 911 RSR, which costs €991,000 plus spares, plus delivery (if Porsche will even sell you one).
A crate engine for the car is in the ~$250,000 range, per more than one person I know who works for the factory's operational partners (Core and Manthey).
Please reach out to Pascal Zurlinden (link below) right away and let him know that a small, independent shop in Washington state can deliver 600+ bhp in a street car while those second-rate losers who work for Porsche Motorsport can barely get that done with a blank check! It's too late for the Daytona 24, which is this weekend, but maybe they can get some help - or at least save a little money - before Sebring.
https://presskit.porsche.de/motorspo...c-gt-2018.html
+1
We've seen time and time again, 5% (or more) increases coming during each production refresh cycle from Porsche and other manufacturers without much in the way of changes in architecture or displacement. To think a 15% increase in power isn't possible with the current platform much less to think it is absurd is ignorant to what has happened throughout history and what is happening now through the advancement of computer simulation.
01-23-2019, 04:57 PM
#66
Drifting
The sound limitations can be overcome with rev limiters and electronic valves. Same with tuning for fuel and emissions. Who said anything about a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty? The 600bhp goal posts seem to be moving now...
Whoa whoa whoa. Calm down. The engines you have mentioned are built specifically for racing series that are restricted for parity. As I'm sure you've noticed, the laptime discrepancies between the cars in the respective classes are very small and there is no reward for a team to pour money into an engine for solely maximizing power when it will never see it's full power potential in competition. Rather, development money will go into engineering efficiency and maximizing the performance for given circumstances and possible restriction scenarios.
We've seen time and time again, 5% (or more) increases coming during each production refresh cycle from Porsche and other manufacturers without much in the way of changes in architecture or displacement. To think a 15% increase in power isn't possible with the current platform much less to think it is absurd is ignorant to what has happened throughout history and what is happening now through the advancement of computer simulation.
Whoa whoa whoa. Calm down. The engines you have mentioned are built specifically for racing series that are restricted for parity. As I'm sure you've noticed, the laptime discrepancies between the cars in the respective classes are very small and there is no reward for a team to pour money into an engine for solely maximizing power when it will never see it's full power potential in competition. Rather, development money will go into engineering efficiency and maximizing the performance for given circumstances and possible restriction scenarios.
We've seen time and time again, 5% (or more) increases coming during each production refresh cycle from Porsche and other manufacturers without much in the way of changes in architecture or displacement. To think a 15% increase in power isn't possible with the current platform much less to think it is absurd is ignorant to what has happened throughout history and what is happening now through the advancement of computer simulation.
Porsche's factory motorsport effort realizes that the various series in which the race will restrict them to some lower output so they just don't try very hard because, like, what would be the point - amirite?
So THAT is how a small tuner with a handful of employees can outdo the factory for, like, cheap.
I guess I must be the ignorant one.
01-23-2019, 06:07 PM
#67
I think I'm understanding you now.
Porsche's factory motorsport effort realizes that the various series in which the race will restrict them to some lower output so they just don't try very hard because, like, what would be the point - amirite?
So THAT is how a small tuner with a handful of employees can outdo the factory for, like, cheap.
I guess I must be the ignorant one.
Porsche's factory motorsport effort realizes that the various series in which the race will restrict them to some lower output so they just don't try very hard because, like, what would be the point - amirite?
So THAT is how a small tuner with a handful of employees can outdo the factory for, like, cheap.
I guess I must be the ignorant one.
The tuner shop hasn't made a 15% improvement yet but have made projections that would net 15% improvement on WHP (475whp) on the 991.1 GT3 with the modifications I mentioned. 15% HP improvement on the 991.2 GT3RS would net (you guessed it) 598bhp! You should look up their Instagram account. You might be impressed with what a small tuner shop with the right personnel, technology, and market can accomplish in today's world.
01-23-2019, 06:29 PM
#68
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Well, that's not what I said at all but okay. The tuner shop is not tuning an engine or building components for a specific racing class. Porsche Motorsport is building for a specific racing class and therein lies the biggest difference to say it simply. The focus of the Porsche Motorsports development resources will be put towards things that can generate more advantage per dollar than the competition. If the competition has power limited in the same fashion as the Porsche teams or has power limited down to the Porsche team, you can bet most of their money will be focused on aero, tire management, and fuel management. Building up an engine that could make 30-40-50% more than it will ever see in competition is a waste of resources and would not be competitive due to that. So, they don't (in your words) "try very hard" on that aspect and instead "try very hard" on the things that can net them more advantage per $.
The tuner shop hasn't made a 15% improvement yet but have made projections that would net 15% improvement on WHP (475whp) on the 991.1 GT3 with the modifications I mentioned. 15% HP improvement on the 991.2 GT3RS would net (you guessed it) 598bhp! You should look up their Instagram account. You might be impressed with what a small tuner shop with the right personnel, technology, and market can accomplish in today's world.
The tuner shop hasn't made a 15% improvement yet but have made projections that would net 15% improvement on WHP (475whp) on the 991.1 GT3 with the modifications I mentioned. 15% HP improvement on the 991.2 GT3RS would net (you guessed it) 598bhp! You should look up their Instagram account. You might be impressed with what a small tuner shop with the right personnel, technology, and market can accomplish in today's world.
With an NA motor, the engine has a ceiling of how much power it can produce. Even if using the best possible intake and exhaust systems, the peak amount of torque that can be produced is limited by the energy that is yielded from the used fuel. That amount can be maximized by using higher compression ratios (the GT3 is already close to the absolute max, given pump fuel of Euro 98 RON or 93 Octane in US). And the horsepower is limited by that torque amount (limited by energy in the fuel) and the speed (rpm) at which the engine can spin.
With a 4.0L Flat-6 the cylinders are unusually large (667cc each). The optimum size cylinders would be about half that (the reason F1 starting using V10's when the displacement limit was 3.5L). The large bore of the 4.0 means the pistons are relatively heavy and the long stroke means the pistons travel faster to achieve the same rpm as a motor with shorter stroke. In order to get 150hp per Liter, you need to spin the motor very fast and this creates tremendous stress on the internals (proportional to the mass of the moving parts and proportional to the Square of the speed they are traveling). Although 150hp per Liter has never been achieved by any road legal NA motor (pretty sure not even 140 has been reached), doing so with a 4.0L Flat-6 would be a monumental achievement (and would most likely result in a very short lifespan before a rebuild would be required).
If you wanted to add 15% hp to the current motor by spinning it 15% faster you would introduce 32% (1.15 x 1.15) more mechanical stress. If you make the parts stronger to sustain that, you likely make them heavier (more material) which again adds even more stress - no way to get out of that spiral without magic materials or much more powerful fuels (other than pump gasoline).
Now I'm not suggesting that the intake and exhaust systems cannot be improved (particularly when forgetting warranty and noise and emissions concerns), but I am suggesting that increasing output by 15% or more is nearly impossible without negatively impacting the life of the motor, emissions, warranty, and noise - and even then, Extremely challenging to say the least.
Last edited by GrantG; 01-23-2019 at 08:37 PM.
01-23-2019, 07:11 PM
#69
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in adding additional power to a state of the art NA motor. If it was turbocharged, I would have no issue with your cavalier attitude when mentioning horsepower improvements of 15-30-40-50%.
With an NA motor, the engine has a ceiling of how much power it can produce. Even if using the best possible intake and exhaust systems, the peak amount of torque that can be produced is limited by the energy that is yielded from the used fuel. That amount can be maximized by using higher compression ratios (the GT3 is already close to the absolute max, given pump fuel of Euro 98 RON or 93 Octane in US). And the horsepower is limited by that torque amount (limited by energy in the fuel) and the speed (rpm) at which the engine can spin.
With a 4.0L Flat-6 the cylinders are unusually large (667cc each). The optimum size cylinders would be about half that (the reason F1 starting using V10's when the displacement limit was 3.5L). The large bore of the 4.0 means the pistons are relatively heavy and the long stroke means the pistons travel faster to achieve the same rpm as a motor with shorter stroke. In order to get 150hp per Liter, you need to spin the motor very fast and this creates tremendous stress on the internals (proportional to the mass of the moving parts and proportional to the Square of the speed they are traveling). Although 150hp per Liter has never been achieved by any road legal NA motor (pretty sure not even 140 has been reached), doing so with a Flat-6 would be a monumental achievement (and would most likely result in a very short lifespan before a rebuild would be required).
If you wanted to add 15% hp to the current motor by spinning it 20% faster you would introduce 32% (1.15 x 1.15) more mechanical stress. If you make the parts stronger to sustain that, you likely make them heavier (more material) which again adds even more stress - no way to get out of that spiral without magic materials or much more powerful fuels (other than pump gasoline).
Now I'm not suggesting that the intake and exhaust systems cannot be improved (particularly when forgetting warranty and noise and emissions concerns), but I am suggesting that increasing output by 15% or more is nearly impossible without negatively impacting the life of the motor, emissions, warranty, and noise - and even then, Extremely challenging to say the least.
With an NA motor, the engine has a ceiling of how much power it can produce. Even if using the best possible intake and exhaust systems, the peak amount of torque that can be produced is limited by the energy that is yielded from the used fuel. That amount can be maximized by using higher compression ratios (the GT3 is already close to the absolute max, given pump fuel of Euro 98 RON or 93 Octane in US). And the horsepower is limited by that torque amount (limited by energy in the fuel) and the speed (rpm) at which the engine can spin.
With a 4.0L Flat-6 the cylinders are unusually large (667cc each). The optimum size cylinders would be about half that (the reason F1 starting using V10's when the displacement limit was 3.5L). The large bore of the 4.0 means the pistons are relatively heavy and the long stroke means the pistons travel faster to achieve the same rpm as a motor with shorter stroke. In order to get 150hp per Liter, you need to spin the motor very fast and this creates tremendous stress on the internals (proportional to the mass of the moving parts and proportional to the Square of the speed they are traveling). Although 150hp per Liter has never been achieved by any road legal NA motor (pretty sure not even 140 has been reached), doing so with a Flat-6 would be a monumental achievement (and would most likely result in a very short lifespan before a rebuild would be required).
If you wanted to add 15% hp to the current motor by spinning it 20% faster you would introduce 32% (1.15 x 1.15) more mechanical stress. If you make the parts stronger to sustain that, you likely make them heavier (more material) which again adds even more stress - no way to get out of that spiral without magic materials or much more powerful fuels (other than pump gasoline).
Now I'm not suggesting that the intake and exhaust systems cannot be improved (particularly when forgetting warranty and noise and emissions concerns), but I am suggesting that increasing output by 15% or more is nearly impossible without negatively impacting the life of the motor, emissions, warranty, and noise - and even then, Extremely challenging to say the least.
01-23-2019, 10:45 PM
#70
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in adding additional power to a state of the art NA motor. If it was turbocharged, I would have no issue with your cavalier attitude when mentioning horsepower improvements of 15-30-40-50%.
With an NA motor, the engine has a ceiling of how much power it can produce. Even if using the best possible intake and exhaust systems, the peak amount of torque that can be produced is limited by the energy that is yielded from the used fuel. That amount can be maximized by using higher compression ratios (the GT3 is already close to the absolute max, given pump fuel of Euro 98 RON or 93 Octane in US). And the horsepower is limited by that torque amount (limited by energy in the fuel) and the speed (rpm) at which the engine can spin.
With a 4.0L Flat-6 the cylinders are unusually large (667cc each). The optimum size cylinders would be about half that (the reason F1 starting using V10's when the displacement limit was 3.5L). The large bore of the 4.0 means the pistons are relatively heavy and the long stroke means the pistons travel faster to achieve the same rpm as a motor with shorter stroke. In order to get 150hp per Liter, you need to spin the motor very fast and this creates tremendous stress on the internals (proportional to the mass of the moving parts and proportional to the Square of the speed they are traveling). Although 150hp per Liter has never been achieved by any road legal NA motor (pretty sure not even 140 has been reached), doing so with a 4.0L Flat-6 would be a monumental achievement (and would most likely result in a very short lifespan before a rebuild would be required).
If you wanted to add 15% hp to the current motor by spinning it 15% faster you would introduce 32% (1.15 x 1.15) more mechanical stress. If you make the parts stronger to sustain that, you likely make them heavier (more material) which again adds even more stress - no way to get out of that spiral without magic materials or much more powerful fuels (other than pump gasoline).
Now I'm not suggesting that the intake and exhaust systems cannot be improved (particularly when forgetting warranty and noise and emissions concerns), but I am suggesting that increasing output by 15% or more is nearly impossible without negatively impacting the life of the motor, emissions, warranty, and noise - and even then, Extremely challenging to say the least.
I do not know about these warranties y'all keep speaking of. Porsche had a tough time keeping the 991.1 engine from failing well within warranty from things unrelated to piston speed or fuel detonation or finger followers or spark plugs or any of this. The warranty isn't a figure at which Porsche believes the engine will grenade. It's a financial calculation. So, the warranty could very well stay the same or even increase if they wanted it to. You are conflating things here with the warranty stuff.
Also, the same or similar internals can handle much more power as demonstrated by the factory turbocharged versions. The real concern with higher revs is valve train stability not piston speed and Porsche is looking pretty good on that too with the latest .2 GT engines. But an increase in RPM is not what we are talking about here.
For your reference, the 458 Speciale has a 4.5L V8 and 14:1 compression. It makes 597hp from the factory. Or is advertised as such. Tuning shops have been able to produce 630hp through a tune or exhaust. That gets to 140hp/L. Not a ton of info out there on this one but it's the highest NA hp/L engine to date. It's a Ferrari but it's still good. It also runs regular old Texas 93 octane.
If you want to see some crazy hp/l figures, prepare to have your mind blown by these Honda guys: http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horse...ine-by-4piston
519hp out of 2.7L.... It runs alcohol but thats 192hp/l! They also make a 2.5L that runs 14:1 compression, doesn't require race gas, and makes 400hp. That's 160hp/l for those counting. Or there's the 360hp 2.5L that runs on 91 octane (144hp/L). Pretty cool, right?
Lots of technology being developed right now focusing on maximizing the fuel burn. In addition, the sim work going on is just incredible. Stuff that hasn't been feasible for even the OEMs in the past is really moving forward in the private sector these days. In many ways, the OEMs are having to keep up or partner with the technologies. Not the other way around.
You forgot this is Dundon. Come on! Their race system takes 991.1 GT3 to 900hp. Its been verified by Matt Moreman of a detailing website on some **** dyno in Orlando so it must be fact. Every other tuner like GMG, Fabspseed, or others that have been doing exhausts for years just missed this "special" trick to make all this extra power.
Y'all can continue being super negative and quick to pass judgment about things you aren't comfortable with but I'm just going to relax and enjoy the progress that's being made right now. Quite a time to be alive.
01-24-2019, 12:11 AM
#72
01-24-2019, 01:33 AM
#74
Race Director
Here's a "rumor" for you. 
: the 992 GT3 will have integrated "Michelin Track Connect" where based on temperature sensors in tires you will receive information on optimal individual tire pressures. No more guessing at pressures, you know exactly how each tire is doing thereby allowing you to maximize tire life and performance on the track. this will be integrated into PCM display and with onboard systems, gt3 will be one of the first cars in the world to have this system fully built-in to the car. Other tire suppliers scrambling as they effectively get locked out. More on this at Geneva. Ciao.
: the 992 GT3 will have integrated "Michelin Track Connect" where based on temperature sensors in tires you will receive information on optimal individual tire pressures. No more guessing at pressures, you know exactly how each tire is doing thereby allowing you to maximize tire life and performance on the track. this will be integrated into PCM display and with onboard systems, gt3 will be one of the first cars in the world to have this system fully built-in to the car. Other tire suppliers scrambling as they effectively get locked out. More on this at Geneva. Ciao.
01-24-2019, 03:59 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Here's a "rumor" for you. : the 992 GT3 will have integrated "Michelin Track Connect" where based on temperature sensors in tires you will receive information on optimal individual tire pressures. No more guessing at pressures, you know exactly how each tire is doing thereby allowing you to maximize tire life and performance on the track. this will be integrated into PCM display and with onboard systems, gt3 will be one of the first cars in the world to have this system fully built-in to the car. Other tire suppliers scrambling as they effectively get locked out. More on this at Geneva. Ciao.
: the 992 GT3 will have integrated "Michelin Track Connect" where based on temperature sensors in tires you will receive information on optimal individual tire pressures. No more guessing at pressures, you know exactly how each tire is doing thereby allowing you to maximize tire life and performance on the track. this will be integrated into PCM display and with onboard systems, gt3 will be one of the first cars in the world to have this system fully built-in to the car. Other tire suppliers scrambling as they effectively get locked out. More on this at Geneva. Ciao.