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Can someone describe in concrete terms the track driving differences between a 911 and a Cayman? I have never driven a 911 on the track, and only once on the road where I couldn't explore the limits. I have driven a Cayman (roughly a 2008 model) on the track just once or twice, and a Lotus Exige S260. But by far most of my track experience is in a 350Z (front engine). I know the book differences, of course - the engine is in the back (RR) versus the middle (MR) versus the front (FR). And I know about the famous "pendulum" effect if you brake too hard into a corner while turning. But can someone give a detailed, non-theoretical description of how one should drive a modern 911 differently? Trail braking (compared to a MR or FR setup), how soon you can get on the gas (compared to MR and FR), throttle steering in high speed turns, how the car feels when you're starting to get oversteer, etc. Next year I'll be driving a 992 on the track and of course I'll have to figure all this stuff out, but it would be great to hear from some folks here who have this experience. Links to any relevant articles or other threads would be appreciated too.
Can someone describe in concrete terms the track driving differences between a 911 and a Cayman? I have never driven a 911 on the track, and only once on the road where I couldn't explore the limits. I have driven a Cayman (roughly a 2008 model) on the track just once or twice, and a Lotus Exige S260. But by far most of my track experience is i
n a 350Z (front engine). I know the book differences, of course - the engine is in the back (RR) versus the middle (MR) versus the front (FR). And I know about the famous "pendulum" effect if you brake too hard into a corner while turning. But can someone give a detailed, non-theoretical description of how one should drive a modern 911 differently? Trail braking (compared to a MR or FR setup), how soon you can get on the gas (compared to MR and FR), throttle steering in high speed turns, how the car feels when you're starting to get oversteer, etc. Next year I'll be driving a 992 on the track and of course I'll have to figure all this stuff out, but it would be great to hear from some folks here who have this experience. Links to any relevant articles or other threads would be appreciated too.
To me the most important difference is that a 911 gives you much more time to recover a spin due to its polar moment of inertia (assuming you're paying close attention to the signals that you're losing grip). A mid-engined car will spin with less warning and a smaller window in which to recover. The old adage for driving a 911 is to enter a corner slowly and accelerate as soon as you begin to unwind the steering wheel (much more detail and technique once you become more advanced). Slow in, Fast out...
And once the car begins to rotate, Don't Lift from the throttle...
It's difficult to answer. The 992 GT3 has removed most of the 911 character "flaws" with clever electronics and a new front end. The GT4, relative to the <992 generation GT3s...generally...requires less braking, less trail braking, going into corners. It rotates easier given it's lower PMI. However, is has far less rear grip post mid corner. Practically, when I drive it, I charge much harder into corners achieving higher min speeds, and gather it up midcorner and try to exit gracefully. Requires less left-foot braking to move grip around, I find that throttle works great given how fast the car responds to input. GT4 has so little HP relative to the GT3, that while the rear grip is lower, it's not easy to overpower it on corner exit (4RS may be something different). At the limit, the cayman platform can be a handfull. The front/rear McPherson suspension architecture has a camber/roll curve disadvantage that can bite you in the *** (essentially while you are loading the car, you are adding bad positive camber on the corner with the most load, it gets worse with the more roll - non linear and can surprise you). 997/991 GT3, you slow more into the corners, trail brake more to get it to rotate because of it's much higher PMI and location of the weight. Min speeds are quite a bit lower - but one you are ready for acceleration, it has superior grip. Once you are on power, the platform has superior stability (as long s you don't lift)...you are unlikely to spin a 911 while on the power. If you need to move weight onto the nose in the corner, left foot braking works better than modulating the throttle - it needs more force as input to make it react. This also manifests as being more difficult to sense and correct with minor changes - when you upset a 911, its more difficult to sense and more difficult to recover than a cayman - again cayman has a lower PMI so easier to drive. 992 front end and whatever electronics tuning they have done with rear steer has fixed corner entry. You can charge in as hard or harder than the GT4, cayman no longer has an advantage here. While corner entry on the 997/991 needed a different style than most other cars, the 992 it just does what you tell it. It's where most of the speed improvements come from on the 992 over the 991 (setting aside the 150% more aero for a second). Those are my observations after about 10K in each of a 997RS, GT4 and the 992.
Last edited by ShakeNBake; 12-09-2022 at 03:22 PM.
I’d say the gt4 is much friendlier up to the limit. “You’re doing great, you got this”. The gt3 is more dramatic and the limits are higher. “Strap in bitch, this will be wild”
It's difficult to answer. The 992 GT3 has removed most of the 911 character "flaws" with clever electronics and a new front end. The GT4, relative to the <992 generation GT3s...generally...requires less braking, less trail braking, going into corners. It rotates easier given it's lower PMI. However, is has far less rear grip post mid corner. Practically, when I drive it, I charge much harder into corners achieving higher min speeds, and gather it up midcorner and try to exit gracefully. Requires less left-foot braking to move grip around, I find that throttle works great given how fast the car responds to input. GT4 has so little HP relative to the GT3, that while the rear grip is lower, it's not easy to overpower it on corner exit (4RS may be something different). At the limit, the cayman platform can be a handfull. The front/rear McPherson suspension architecture has a camber/roll curve disadvantage that can bite you in the *** (essentially while you are loading the car, you are adding bad positive camber on the corner with the most load, it gets worse with the more roll - non linear and can surprise you). 997/991 GT3, you slow more into the corners, trail brake more to get it to rotate because of it's much higher PMI and location of the weight. Min speeds are quite a bit lower - but one you are ready for acceleration, it has superior grip. Once you are on power, the platform has superior stability (as long s you don't lift)...you are unlikely to spin a 911 while on the power. If you need to move weight onto the nose in the corner, left foot braking works better than modulating the throttle - it needs more force as input to make it react. This also manifests as being more difficult to sense and correct with minor changes - when you upset a 911, its more difficult to sense and more difficult to recover than a cayman - again cayman has a lower PMI so easier to drive. 992 front end and whatever electronics tuning they have done with rear steer has fixed corner entry. You can charge in as hard or harder than the GT4, cayman no longer has an advantage here. While corner entry on the 997/991 needed a different style than most other cars, the 992 it just does what you tell it. It's whe most of the speed improvements come from on the 992 over the 991 (setting aside the 150% more aero for a second). Those are my observations after about 10K in each of a 997RS, GT4 and the 992.
MANY reviews written on 992 but THIS IS THE SHORTEST AND THE MOST WELL written one.
I have had a lot of. cayman gt4 and cS. I hear ppl tell me GT4 handles better, it's a go kart, blah blah
well, they are not driving it hard.
at limit GT4 is MUCH harder to drive than any 911.
and 992 as you said, no longer behave like what we are used to.
it does what you ask it to do, you still have to DRIVE it, but it will not argue with you.
front grips like FWD so you can enter turn fast
rear grips like old 911 at exit
mid corner is like go kart
some say it's easier to drive. well maybe, maybe not...
if you can really drive. you will want this car...
I sold my 4.0 b/c 992 !
and this car is brilliant at 20mph as it is at 150mph...
I like it so much I sold my dually and suv...
b/c I don't want to drive anything else. if stuff don't fit in my 992... well I guess I don't need that....
To me the most important difference is that a 911 gives you much more time to recover a spin due to its polar moment of inertia (assuming you're paying close attention to the signals that you're losing grip). A mid-engined car will spin with less warning and a smaller window in which to recover. The old adage for driving a 911 is to enter a corner slowly and accelerate as soon as you begin to unwind the steering wheel (much more detail and technique once you become more advanced). Slow in, Fast out...
And once the car begins to rotate, Don't Lift from the throttle...
MANY reviews written on 992 but THIS IS THE SHORTEST AND THE MOST WELL written one.
I have had a lot of. cayman gt4 and cS. I hear ppl tell me GT4 handles better, it's a go kart, blah blah
well, they are not driving it hard.
at limit GT4 is MUCH harder to drive than any 911.
and 992 as you said, no longer behave like what we are used to.
it does what you ask it to do, you still have to DRIVE it, but it will not argue with you.
front grips like FWD so you can enter turn fast
rear grips like old 911 at exit
mid corner is like go kart
some say it's easier to drive. well maybe, maybe not...
if you can really drive. you will want this car... I sold my 4.0 b/c 992 !
and this car is brilliant at 20mph as it is at 150mph...
I like it so much I sold my dually and suv...
b/c I don't want to drive anything else. if stuff don't fit in my 992... well I guess I don't need that....
What canister pressures and compression/rebound settings are you using on your MCS's?
I also have the MCS 2-ways on my 718 GT4. I am currently at 155lbs on the canisters all around and 10 clicks for both compression & rebound. Oh, and I have the Swift springs 80F/100R.
I am thinking about going a little higher on the canister pressures and reducing the clicks to 9. When the rear dampers gets heat into them, I can feel them fall off a bit. I think higher pressures will help with that.
MANY reviews written on 992 but THIS IS THE SHORTEST AND THE MOST WELL written one.
I have had a lot of. cayman gt4 and cS. I hear ppl tell me GT4 handles better, it's a go kart, blah blah
well, they are not driving it hard.
at limit GT4 is MUCH harder to drive than any 911.
and 992 as you said, no longer behave like what we are used to.
it does what you ask it to do, you still have to DRIVE it, but it will not argue with you.
front grips like FWD so you can enter turn fast
rear grips like old 911 at exit
mid corner is like go kart
some say it's easier to drive. well maybe, maybe not...
if you can really drive. you will want this car...
I sold my 4.0 b/c 992 !
and this car is brilliant at 20mph as it is at 150mph...
I like it so much I sold my dually and suv...
b/c I don't want to drive anything else. if stuff don't fit in my 992... well I guess I don't need that....
But the digital tach! The horror.
John that's awesome you found something new that speaks to you that much. It says a lot. Now you are tempting me. I had decided I was done doing next P-GT churn!
In a 911 to go fast you need to be comfortable with the rear moving a lot. As said above the newer generations and ESC have substantially reduced the tendency . Turn ESC off and the weight and dynamics of the 911 are still there.
In a cayman if the rear is moving you are close to the edge but it is so balanced you can ride the edge all day if you know where it is. Once it goes, harder to recover.
All of this assumes no computer assist . Porsche stability control is very good and there is no reason to turn it off for 95 % of us. It will slow down the negative results of most mistakes to give you time to realize the mistake and hopefully correct it.
Get a toy car and some lead weight and play with moving the weight front to back, back to front, on a slick table top. Make sure you have your fire suit and helmet on...
12-09-2022, 02:45 PM
