911ST
09-08-2023, 06:37 PM
#3001
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I think the Dakar could've been better positioned. Everyone sees it as an off road car because that's how PAG promoted it. However, the people I know who bought one did so to use in place of an SUV for roads that are unfriendly to sports cars. That's me too. I simply cannot daily a 911 or any other sports car but given the allocation, a Dakar would replace my daily Macan Turbo in a heart beat. For people like me, it's one of the most desirable 911s in the lineup right now.
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AlexCeres (09-09-2023)
09-08-2023, 06:42 PM
#3002
RL Community Team
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I think the Dakar could've been better positioned. Everyone sees it as an off road car because that's how PAG promoted it. However, the people I know who bought one did so to use in place of an SUV for roads that are unfriendly to sports cars. That's me too. I simply cannot daily a 911 or any other sports car but given the allocation, a Dakar would replace my daily Macan Turbo in a heart beat. For people like me, it's one of the most desirable 911s in the lineup right now.
09-08-2023, 06:50 PM
#3003
Rennlist Member
So I've heard and I hope so. Seems like PAG learned a thing or two with the GT3T. Launch a limited quantity car (911R) to test the market. Once proven, launch a higher production variant (GT3T). Not sure if that was the intent but that's how I see it and something similar could be happening with the Dakar and this rumored off road 911.
09-08-2023, 07:41 PM
#3004
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I'm waiting for the Dakar RS with manual.
09-08-2023, 08:34 PM
#3005
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Well, this just pisses me off. Here I am, in Mexico, trying to get a Dakar to actually use it in rough terrain and I can't get one because they only sent a handful. And how does Porsche reallocate cars like that? A Porsche made for China surely doesn't meet DOT. Are these cars sent back to the factory prior to redirecting them to NA?
The closest scenario like that would be a few 918s that was destined for China got refused delivery, the buyers involved didn't want to stand out during the crack down on wealth in China. Word of those 'extra' cars got back to me and I had asked Porsche AG for one of those. Nein was the answer as NA spec is different than RoW spec and those cars ended up back in Europe.
The only possible way to trade 'cars' between RoW and North American market would be those 'cars' are just build slots.
Another reason why Porsche AG would allocate, in their mind, enough numbers for North American consumption then spread the rest to RoW.
Normal product spread would be North America taking roughly 1/3 of all productions, for 'specialty cars' the mix is skewed more towards the North American side as PCNA's dealers always take more cars with fake customer infos so they can flip them after.
The S/T won't be any different, the vultures aka the dealers are out in force looking for blood since it's a manual car.
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09-08-2023, 10:48 PM
#3006
Rennlist Member
@Whoopsy thanks for that. Knowing what DOT is like, it didn't make sense. If that's the case, I truly hope those ROW cars get a little wider distribution than EU as many countries get slim pickings on these special edition cars.
09-09-2023, 09:33 AM
#3007
Rennlist Member
@Whoopsy The story on the "China 918s" is a bit off. The timeline is factually different from yours, by years. Yes there were a few 918s in limbo c. 2015-6 but that had to do with Porsche China not willing to help the supposed owners get a grandfathered import tax treatment. Good luck fighting the government on matters like that as you'd know.
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riche voting with their wallets for the more, uh, "in your face" brands... the nuance we value so much in Porsche is simply is a non-concept in most of those buyers...
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that they take anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts going there.
In other words, as a market China actually subsidizes the rest of the world by taking more of the the garden-variety stuff and less of the sought-afters...
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riche voting with their wallets for the more, uh, "in your face" brands... the nuance we value so much in Porsche is simply is a non-concept in most of those buyers...
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that they take anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts going there.
In other words, as a market China actually subsidizes the rest of the world by taking more of the the garden-variety stuff and less of the sought-afters...
Last edited by CRex; 09-09-2023 at 12:38 PM.
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09-09-2023, 09:40 AM
#3008
@Whoopsy The story on the "China 918s" is a bit off. The timeline is factually different from yours, by years. Yes there were a few 918s in limbo c. 2015-6 but that had to do with Porsche China not willing to help the supposed owners get a grandfathered import tax treatment. Good luck fighting the government on matters like that as you'd know.
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riches voting with their wallets in favor of the more, eh, "monied" brands.
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that China takes anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products desired by the rest of the world is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts excluding Hong Kong.
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riches voting with their wallets in favor of the more, eh, "monied" brands.
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that China takes anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products desired by the rest of the world is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts excluding Hong Kong.
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flsupraguy (09-09-2023)
09-09-2023, 10:26 AM
#3009
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Let’s not forget that Porsche has transitioned over the decades to being a company that primarily sells SUVs and sedans, with sports cars being a sideline. That means that Porsche overlaps more with Mercedes than Ferrari.
09-09-2023, 10:39 AM
#3010
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that China takes anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products desired by the rest of the world is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts excluding Hong Kong.
Macan and Cayenne particularly in demand
"Among the various models, the Macan was most in demand, with 22,458 units delivered in the first quarter. The Cayenne followed in second place with 19,533 vehicles. 9,133 customers took delivery of the sports car icon 911. The first all-electric sports car from Porsche was equally popular: 9,072 Taycan cars were delivered in the first three months of the year. The mid-engine sports cars also remain popular: 6,190 units of the 718 Boxster and 718 Cayman were delivered. The Panamera was handed over to 5,600 customers."
Press releases: Porsche China receives a positive start of the year with surging demand on two-door sports car models - Newsroom & Press - About Porsche - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
Porsche's record sales boosted by China demand | Automotive News Europe (autonews.com)
2021 (Full Year) Global: Porsche Worldwide Sales by Model and Markets - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)
Last edited by Diablo Dude; 09-09-2023 at 10:43 AM.
09-09-2023, 12:02 PM
#3011
Rennlist Member
@Whoopsy The story on the "China 918s" is a bit off. The timeline is factually different from yours, by years. Yes there were a few 918s in limbo c. 2015-6 but that had to do with Porsche China not willing to help the supposed owners get a grandfathered import tax treatment. Good luck fighting the government on matters like that as you'd know.
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riches voting with their wallets in favor of the more, eh, "monied" brands.
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that China takes anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products desired by the rest of the world is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts excluding Hong Kong.
And here's the ground truth today: China as a market really doesn't demand GT Porsches like the rest of world. RSes priced in the zipcode of Ferraris etc. have the nouveau riches voting with their wallets in favor of the more, eh, "monied" brands.
So while Porsche does sell 30% of its volume to China, the allusion that China takes anywhere near that percentage in terms of sportscar products desired by the rest of the world is, quite simply, inaccurate. I'll be impressed if there's more than 100 992.1 GT3RS or 40 S/Ts excluding Hong Kong.
As for the reason part, it is well known during those time the government was cracking down on questionable wealth. Even people with legitimate wealth are laying low. Taking delivery of a flashy brand new 918 isn't laying low you know. The extra tax needed to pay is just an inconvenience, they can afford the money easily but staying alive is more important.
You are correct however about the lack of appetite for sports cars in China. They much prefer the sedans and SUVs.
On my last Porsche driving trip a couple months ago in the Alps, I actually met 6 clients from Porsche China, first time we had those. 2 from Beijing, 2 from Chengdu and 2 from Guangzhou. All are GT3 owners but only 1 of them actually drive the car regularly. Track it in fact down south at Zhuhai actually. Because of the language barrier Porsche actually assigned them a driving instructor that's from China, to be the interpreter also. A sight to be seen as he was talking to the clients in Mandarin and Cantonese, then to the Porsche personal in German and other clients in English. I spent 5 days with them in Italy and chatted about cars and gained a lot of insights into how the mainland Chinese viewed Porsche.
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Odin (09-18-2023)
09-09-2023, 12:33 PM
#3012
Weird that Porsche charges $10k more for PTS ($21k) on the ST than it does on a Panamera Turismo ($11k). Manufacturer second sticker in plain site. Or, is the paint "lighter" on the ST? 
09-09-2023, 12:46 PM
#3013
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09-09-2023, 05:56 PM
#3015
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