Lord, is the 991.2 a fast car!
10-07-2016, 07:14 PM
#76
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I do find it funny that everyone's heads are exploding because it's turning out that the .2 is a bit of a beast.
But, but, but, it must've been a cold day...and different drivers...cold tires...wasn't windy...track isn't a good location for comparison...but, but, but...
But, but, but, it must've been a cold day...and different drivers...cold tires...wasn't windy...track isn't a good location for comparison...but, but, but...
10-07-2016, 07:15 PM
#77
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Sorry but I have to disagree. I owned a 2001 Toyota MR2 Spyder with 138hp. Manual top with 5MT (I recall). It was a total blast to drive. I loved rowing through the gears in that car. I miss it and should never have sold it. My 315HP Boxster has better looks, sound and prestige but that is about it. (granted all of that makes me feel fantastic).
I'm not saying power doesn't matter. I will say that too much power deadens the experience for me. If you are so impressed with HP, why not get a Mustang?
I'm not saying power doesn't matter. I will say that too much power deadens the experience for me. If you are so impressed with HP, why not get a Mustang?
10-07-2016, 07:30 PM
#78
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There obviously many reasons. The one most pertinent to this discussion is that the 991.2 in any of its configurations, but especially a 991.2S, accelerates faster than a mustang.
I have owned an enjoyed a variety of US muscle cars. They offer a lot of "bang for the buck". They do not, however, compare to a contemporary 991.2 in many ways. That still does not mean that a similar, or higher level, of straight line acceleration in a Porsche does not add to the pleasure of driving it for some of us.
If I were prepared to pay the cost, I would drive a TTS with zero to sixty acceleration well under 3.0 seconds.
Everyone has their own subjective opinion of desirable performance. Arguing as to which is most "correct" or "reasonable" is an exercise in futility.
Exactly. That is why Archimedes and I buy Porsches.
I wasn't even talking about boosted cars. My NA 981S is at 85mph in second gear. Really? That just sucks.
I don't mean to take away from the 991.2S. I've driven it and the car is just fantastic. I just don't want that much power for a commuter car which is what I am going to use mine for. Now, If I was a track junkie, I wouldn't touch a Carrera or Targa with a 10' pole. GT3RS maybe but rear engine cars are not where it is at. Porsche needs to get over their VW emissions hangover and field the mid-engine 960.
10-07-2016, 07:44 PM
#80
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This has nothing to do with high reving engines. It has everything to do with emissions and mpg. That is why the 911 has 7 gears and a 3.0 liter turbo. (also Chinese tax on everything over 3.0 liters).
China is the largest and fastest growing market. Porsche is building their cars for them. Hence the 4 cylinder 2 liter turbo 718 rolled out in Beijing.
ok....I am off my soap box.
10-07-2016, 07:50 PM
#81
The additional HP of the 991.2 is negligible at best. The difference here is HOW it makes power vs the 991.1.
I know you know that... but for anyone out there window shopping thinking 20hp is mind blowing will be mislead. It does make significantly more toq but again, its not just the number but the power "under the curve" as they say.
I know you know that... but for anyone out there window shopping thinking 20hp is mind blowing will be mislead. It does make significantly more toq but again, its not just the number but the power "under the curve" as they say.
10-07-2016, 07:56 PM
#82
And the reason they're the most raced car in the world has nothing to do with the power and everything to do with the low cost of racing that car. Do you think if a 385HP Cayman GT4 was the same cost to race as a Miata and had similar manufacturer support, guys would still prefer to race the Miata?
10-07-2016, 08:08 PM
#83
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And the reason they're the most raced car in the world has nothing to do with the power and everything to do with the low cost of racing that car. Do you think if a 385HP Cayman GT4 was the same cost to race as a Miata and had similar manufacturer support, guys would still prefer to race the Miata?
I think you may be comparing apples to plums here. One is a Mazda and the other is a Porsche. One is mid-engine the other is not. One looks friggin fantastic and the other is a yawner. One comes from a brand that has won 17 le-mans and the other......well not so much.
Yeah. The GT4 wins. I get it.
P.S Did anyone really have a Mazda poster hanging up in their bedroom growing up? Mine was a 930 Turbo.
10-07-2016, 09:21 PM
#85
Drifting
Arch is right on here. Turbos make lots of torques, torques make the car go fast, they make it feel even faster.
My previous 2 911s before current 991GTS were Turbos. Let's go all the way back 14 years to the 996TT X50 I had. The HP was similar to the GTS, at 450 vs. 430. Power-to-weight was even closer because the 996TT weighed almost 3400 pounds compared to under 3200 for the GTS. But torque of the 996 was 467, vs 324 for the 991. Almost 150 more ft-lbs.
And most similar of all? Porsche officially said both cars did 3.8 0-60 times.
But on the street? There was absolutely zero chance of confusing them. The 996TT would absolutely destroy my 991GTS in any sort of real-life useful test of speed, like 5-60, 60-130, 30-90, etc. Sure, with the trick gearbox and launch control a 991GTS can manage to eke out the same numbers, on paper. But lining them up on the road in anything other than a controlled dragstrip launch? Bye bye 996TT.
And to the other side of this argument: I never once thought to myself, "Whoa! Dammit, this 996TT (or 997TT) is just too fast for the street." Like most owners, after Month Two I was usually thinking, "This is great! Wouldn't a little more be even greater???" And this was years ago, when the 996TT was just about the quickest car in the world and the acceleration delta between, say, a 911 Turbo and a Corvette or Mustang GT was a lot more than it is today.
My previous 2 911s before current 991GTS were Turbos. Let's go all the way back 14 years to the 996TT X50 I had. The HP was similar to the GTS, at 450 vs. 430. Power-to-weight was even closer because the 996TT weighed almost 3400 pounds compared to under 3200 for the GTS. But torque of the 996 was 467, vs 324 for the 991. Almost 150 more ft-lbs.
And most similar of all? Porsche officially said both cars did 3.8 0-60 times.
But on the street? There was absolutely zero chance of confusing them. The 996TT would absolutely destroy my 991GTS in any sort of real-life useful test of speed, like 5-60, 60-130, 30-90, etc. Sure, with the trick gearbox and launch control a 991GTS can manage to eke out the same numbers, on paper. But lining them up on the road in anything other than a controlled dragstrip launch? Bye bye 996TT.
And to the other side of this argument: I never once thought to myself, "Whoa! Dammit, this 996TT (or 997TT) is just too fast for the street." Like most owners, after Month Two I was usually thinking, "This is great! Wouldn't a little more be even greater???" And this was years ago, when the 996TT was just about the quickest car in the world and the acceleration delta between, say, a 911 Turbo and a Corvette or Mustang GT was a lot more than it is today.
10-07-2016, 09:35 PM
#86
Its like when BMW boosted the top level 3 series in 2007 and it became a beast in its class. Heads exploded.
10-07-2016, 10:22 PM
#87
Who said anything about top speed? 0-60, 1/4 mile, lap times, getting off the line driving around town, getting on the freeway, and/or making a quick pass on a two lane road have little to nothing to do with top speed and everything to do with how much and where a car makes power.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks you can't get any use out of the additional power in a high HP/TQ car on the street has simply never owned one. And when you're talking about the .2, we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks you can't get any use out of the additional power in a high HP/TQ car on the street has simply never owned one. And when you're talking about the .2, we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
I drove the 07 Cayman S and the 991.1 within a day of each other and enjoyed driving the Cayman S more and it had nothing to do with power. I think the Cayman S would be greatly improved by more power as I could floor it in 2nd gear and not get the feeling of acceleration I wanted (although it's partly because I'm at high altitude).
With the 991.1 I've never felt like lack of power is holding me back from enjoying the car. If I floor it I can only accelerate a moment before I have to slow down since I'm over the speed limit so quickly. Sure I wouldn't complain about more torque at a low rpm, but I think making the car lighter and/or smaller may make me enjoy the car more.
10-07-2016, 10:36 PM
#88
Instructor
In my quest for a 911 I drove a 2014 PDK Carrera and a 2017 6 speed Carrera, the 17 felt like the torque was much greater from 20 mph to 90 mph. Not real close either. I ordered a 2017.
10-07-2016, 10:54 PM
#89
RL Community Team
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To be fair, I don't think anyone with a 991.2 would trade you even dollars for your 991.1 GTS
10-08-2016, 12:51 AM
#90
I'm not surprised by the lap times - it also did a 1:09.6 round Hockenheim (short) only 0.5s behind the 911R, 0.4s behind the 991 GT3, 0.3 behind the 991 Turbo S and 0.1s behind the 997 GT3RS.
The 991.2 S is clearly a step change as opposed to a face lift. Consider the numbers below (RPM - HP)
RPM--991.1S--GTS--991.2S
4000---213---217---282 HP
5000---295---295---352 HP
6000---364---363---404 HP
6500---385---384---420 HP
7000---390---407---408 HP
7500---395---426---396 HP
AUC----337---342---375 HP (area under torque curve from 4000 rpm calculated using the trapezoid rule)
Then add improved steering (calibration and feel), PASM and PTV-E (re-calibrated and as std) plus rear axle steering (as an option). You now have a car with far better feel, handling and more useable power than the previous model. Hence the standard Fig 8 time for the 991.1S is 23.1s Vs 991.1S which is 24.2s (this is a very big difference).
I liked the 991.1 but felt it was underdone to some degree, hence my purchase of a 981 GTS (better feel and handling than the 991.1 base and S plus better sound track - arguably one of the best of any Porsche). The step change thats clear in the 991.2S re-engaged me to such a degree that I ordered one. I really would recommend a test drive - its a great car, you can take it by the scruff of the neck, not only does it fly, it handles very well and the sound track is very close to being as good as the old one
The 991.2 S is clearly a step change as opposed to a face lift. Consider the numbers below (RPM - HP)
RPM--991.1S--GTS--991.2S
4000---213---217---282 HP
5000---295---295---352 HP
6000---364---363---404 HP
6500---385---384---420 HP
7000---390---407---408 HP
7500---395---426---396 HP
AUC----337---342---375 HP (area under torque curve from 4000 rpm calculated using the trapezoid rule)
Then add improved steering (calibration and feel), PASM and PTV-E (re-calibrated and as std) plus rear axle steering (as an option). You now have a car with far better feel, handling and more useable power than the previous model. Hence the standard Fig 8 time for the 991.1S is 23.1s Vs 991.1S which is 24.2s (this is a very big difference).
I liked the 991.1 but felt it was underdone to some degree, hence my purchase of a 981 GTS (better feel and handling than the 991.1 base and S plus better sound track - arguably one of the best of any Porsche). The step change thats clear in the 991.2S re-engaged me to such a degree that I ordered one. I really would recommend a test drive - its a great car, you can take it by the scruff of the neck, not only does it fly, it handles very well and the sound track is very close to being as good as the old one
Last edited by randr; 10-08-2016 at 01:26 AM.