Lord, is the 991.2 a fast car!
10-08-2016, 09:48 AM
#91
That's one VERY good question. I couldn't connect emotionally with the .2 because of how quiet it was. The PSE "might" fix the exhaust note but I heard zero induction noise during our test drive.
I just can't see how it's going to ever sound better than the 3.8L GTS. I's a super nice car, fast and efficient but I need engaging, not fast. Some of course need the speed.
Initially I wanted an E92 M3 because of the growl of its V8 motor, drove the new models and had the same issue as with the .2, faster more efficient but not engaging.
When the DD has to be replaced I might give the 991.2 a second look or try a Cayman, we'll see...or look for a 2nd 991.1 GTS with a decent mileage...all good problems
I just can't see how it's going to ever sound better than the 3.8L GTS. I's a super nice car, fast and efficient but I need engaging, not fast. Some of course need the speed.
Initially I wanted an E92 M3 because of the growl of its V8 motor, drove the new models and had the same issue as with the .2, faster more efficient but not engaging.
When the DD has to be replaced I might give the 991.2 a second look or try a Cayman, we'll see...or look for a 2nd 991.1 GTS with a decent mileage...all good problems
10-08-2016, 09:58 AM
#92
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
you can show me all the diagrams, top gear reviews, you tube videos, "test drove a .2 today" threads, in the end of the day, it's how the car makes you feel behind the wheel. i mean some people here think the 996 is the best driver's car ever made by Porsche. this is all gibberish. porsche is business company that likes money. this had to be a "faster" car otherwise what's the point in improving on the .1?
turbo cars are and always be akin to marmite.......you either love it or hate it.
p.s.
what are we going to do/say when the next 911 will only be battery powered to compete with the Teslas of the world? you can only push forced induction so much.....then everyone will agree that the 991.2 is last great/true porsche....
2cents.
turbo cars are and always be akin to marmite.......you either love it or hate it.
p.s.
what are we going to do/say when the next 911 will only be battery powered to compete with the Teslas of the world? you can only push forced induction so much.....then everyone will agree that the 991.2 is last great/true porsche....
2cents.
10-08-2016, 11:32 AM
#93
Banned
I'm not surprised by the lap times - it also did a 1:09.6 round Hockenheim (short) only 0.5s behind the 911R, 0.4s behind the 991 GT3, 0.3 behind the 991 Turbo S and 0.1s behind the 997 GT3RS.
The 991.2 S is clearly a step change as opposed to a face lift. Consider the numbers below (RPM - HP)
RPM--991.1S--GTS--991.2S
4000---213---217---282 HP
5000---295---295---352 HP
6000---364---363---404 HP
6500---385---384---420 HP
7000---390---407---408 HP
7500---395---426---396 HP
AUC----337---342---375 HP (area under torque curve from 4000 rpm calculated using the trapezoid rule)
Then add improved steering (calibration and feel), PASM and PTV-E (re-calibrated and as std) plus rear axle steering (as an option). You now have a car with far better feel, handling and more useable power than the previous model. Hence the standard Fig 8 time for the 991.1S is 23.1s Vs 991.1S which is 24.2s (this is a very big difference).
I liked the 991.1 but felt it was underdone to some degree, hence my purchase of a 981 GTS (better feel and handling than the 991.1 base and S plus better sound track - arguably one of the best of any Porsche). The step change thats clear in the 991.2S re-engaged me to such a degree that I ordered one. I really would recommend a test drive - its a great car, you can take it by the scruff of the neck, not only does it fly, it handles very well and the sound track is very close to being as good as the old one
The 991.2 S is clearly a step change as opposed to a face lift. Consider the numbers below (RPM - HP)
RPM--991.1S--GTS--991.2S
4000---213---217---282 HP
5000---295---295---352 HP
6000---364---363---404 HP
6500---385---384---420 HP
7000---390---407---408 HP
7500---395---426---396 HP
AUC----337---342---375 HP (area under torque curve from 4000 rpm calculated using the trapezoid rule)
Then add improved steering (calibration and feel), PASM and PTV-E (re-calibrated and as std) plus rear axle steering (as an option). You now have a car with far better feel, handling and more useable power than the previous model. Hence the standard Fig 8 time for the 991.1S is 23.1s Vs 991.1S which is 24.2s (this is a very big difference).
I liked the 991.1 but felt it was underdone to some degree, hence my purchase of a 981 GTS (better feel and handling than the 991.1 base and S plus better sound track - arguably one of the best of any Porsche). The step change thats clear in the 991.2S re-engaged me to such a degree that I ordered one. I really would recommend a test drive - its a great car, you can take it by the scruff of the neck, not only does it fly, it handles very well and the sound track is very close to being as good as the old one
Last edited by jimbo1111; 10-08-2016 at 01:49 PM.
10-08-2016, 12:10 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...t/3190508.html
we should buy as many 991.2 with delivery miles and store them in a bunker since they will be worth more than gold in 2030
we should buy as many 991.2 with delivery miles and store them in a bunker since they will be worth more than gold in 2030
10-08-2016, 12:38 PM
#96
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http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...t/3190508.html
we should buy as many 991.2 with delivery miles and store them in a bunker since they will be worth more than gold in 2030
we should buy as many 991.2 with delivery miles and store them in a bunker since they will be worth more than gold in 2030
10-08-2016, 05:01 PM
#97
Rennlist Member
You're making a nonsense argument. Did you miss the part where I said, we're not talking about a supercar here?
Let's keep it simple. Would you rather have a car that had 100 more ft lbs of torque in the lower rev range and went 0-60 in 3 seconds, or one with 100 less and went 0-60 in 4 seconds? All other things equal, most people would choose the former, not just because it's going to be more fun if they decide to wring it out, but because that additional power is going to make driving everywhere easier and more pleasurable. Drive a high hp/high torque car someday and then come back and tell us how you prefer a base Cayman.
I'll ask again, all you guys that think the power doesn't matter, have any of you actually owned a high hp car, say with 450+HP? I have and I used that additional power all the time, without ever getting a single ticket or having a single accident. The idea that more power is marketing fluff and a waste is nonsense. BTW, I intend on ordering a base Carrera next, because it's fast enough for me and has less lag, but I get why someone would go for the S.
Let's keep it simple. Would you rather have a car that had 100 more ft lbs of torque in the lower rev range and went 0-60 in 3 seconds, or one with 100 less and went 0-60 in 4 seconds? All other things equal, most people would choose the former, not just because it's going to be more fun if they decide to wring it out, but because that additional power is going to make driving everywhere easier and more pleasurable. Drive a high hp/high torque car someday and then come back and tell us how you prefer a base Cayman.
I'll ask again, all you guys that think the power doesn't matter, have any of you actually owned a high hp car, say with 450+HP? I have and I used that additional power all the time, without ever getting a single ticket or having a single accident. The idea that more power is marketing fluff and a waste is nonsense. BTW, I intend on ordering a base Carrera next, because it's fast enough for me and has less lag, but I get why someone would go for the S.
I wouldn't turn down another jolt of torque and HP in my .1 S, however it has reached the point where more isn't really better or more fun frankly. Certainly for *my* street use. Your threshold is different and that's cool.
I sold a turbo car with 480 HP to get into my car with only 400 but more tactile feel, less of a non-linear turbo torque power delivery.(BMW M4). In the past I sold a 330 hp M3 for a 280 hp 987-S.
In this case the 991 has "enough power" for my mostly street use while the 987-s did not (and I bought a 997 Gt3
10-08-2016, 05:24 PM
#98
People who prefer the .2 value the added hp & torque more than the reduction in sound, theatrics and redline.
Those of us who are happily keeping the .1 value those intangibles, but if we could keep them we would absolutely take the new hp & torque as well. Any suggestion that we wouldn't is silly. Sure the .1 is prenty fast, but more is better and that's a scientific fact.
Now, if instead of using turbos in persuit of EPA standards, they got that hp and torque with more displacement and increased redline, both types of people would love the new model.
Those of us who are happily keeping the .1 value those intangibles, but if we could keep them we would absolutely take the new hp & torque as well. Any suggestion that we wouldn't is silly. Sure the .1 is prenty fast, but more is better and that's a scientific fact.
Now, if instead of using turbos in persuit of EPA standards, they got that hp and torque with more displacement and increased redline, both types of people would love the new model.
10-08-2016, 05:41 PM
#99
Banned
People who prefer the .2 value the added hp & torque more than the reduction in sound, theatrics and redline.
Those of us who are happily keeping the .1 value those intangibles, but if we could keep them we would absolutely take the new hp & torque as well. Any suggestion that we wouldn't is silly. Sure the .1 is prenty fast, but more is better and that's a scientific fact.
Now, if instead of using turbos in persuit of EPA standards, they got that hp and torque with more displacement and increased redline, both types of people would love the new model.
Those of us who are happily keeping the .1 value those intangibles, but if we could keep them we would absolutely take the new hp & torque as well. Any suggestion that we wouldn't is silly. Sure the .1 is prenty fast, but more is better and that's a scientific fact.
Now, if instead of using turbos in persuit of EPA standards, they got that hp and torque with more displacement and increased redline, both types of people would love the new model.
10-08-2016, 10:08 PM
#103
The N/A cars rev higher though. I know my GTS revs and make great power to 8000 rpm. Fuel cut off isn't till 8200. Rpms don't fall off below 5000 on the following gear. The formula your using is taking the best power band of the .2 into account. Of-course it's going to look better.
Superimposed on this are improvements to suspension, traction, brakes and steering feel. All this adds up to a much improved package from the perspective of handling and stopping.
Some more figures
991.2 S 1/4mile 11.5s at 121 mph, 0-60mph 3.1s
911GTS 1/4 mile 11.9s at 118mph, 0-60mph 3.9s
Fig8 .2 S - 23.1s
Fig8 .1 S - 24.2s
The few hundred rpm up the sleeve of the GTS doesn't add anything significant to the performance.
The 991.2 S is clearly one heck of a car, all the figures support this. Whats more, the improvements are across the board e.g. handling, stopping, acceleration and importantly feel (the EAS is a big improvement).
All of this translates to very fast lap times.
10-09-2016, 02:23 AM
#104
Banned
The results are derived from the torque curves published by Porsche. The 991.2 has in total a broader higher torque curve than the 991.1S/GTS - so it makes more power under the curve and is therefore faster.
Superimposed on this are improvements to suspension, traction, brakes and steering feel. All this adds up to a much improved package from the perspective of handling and stopping.
Some more figures
991.2 S 1/4mile 11.5s at 121 mph, 0-60mph 3.1s
911GTS 1/4 mile 11.9s at 118mph, 0-60mph 3.9s
Fig8 .2 S - 23.1s
Fig8 .1 S - 24.2s
The few hundred rpm up the sleeve of the GTS doesn't add anything significant to the performance.
The 991.2 S is clearly one heck of a car, all the figures support this. Whats more, the improvements are across the board e.g. handling, stopping, acceleration and importantly feel (the EAS is a big improvement).
All of this translates to very fast lap times.
Superimposed on this are improvements to suspension, traction, brakes and steering feel. All this adds up to a much improved package from the perspective of handling and stopping.
Some more figures
991.2 S 1/4mile 11.5s at 121 mph, 0-60mph 3.1s
911GTS 1/4 mile 11.9s at 118mph, 0-60mph 3.9s
Fig8 .2 S - 23.1s
Fig8 .1 S - 24.2s
The few hundred rpm up the sleeve of the GTS doesn't add anything significant to the performance.
The 991.2 S is clearly one heck of a car, all the figures support this. Whats more, the improvements are across the board e.g. handling, stopping, acceleration and importantly feel (the EAS is a big improvement).
All of this translates to very fast lap times.
Lets see. 991.2 is only 3 seconds faster than the .1 narrow body S.
The .1 AND .2 are more comparable than one would think. Advancement in the p zero rubber for one can close the gap along with equal drivers . .2 driver is noticable faster than his predecessor. The name escapes me..
Manufacturers choose the rate of progression and it isn't by accident that cars seem faster. It's a manipulated outcome.
What beside RWS does the .2 have to actually offer over a wide body. Did porsche upgrade the shocks and suspension? Seriously doubt it. In fact I would venture to say that the added wieght in the rear would require RWS in order to offset a deficit in handling. It becomes a necessity otherwise a deficiency would occur. Call it progression but I call it a bandaid with a positive outcome. Since it over compensates and adds a degree of agility. Along with wieght and complexity. Hope no one hits a curb with it. Can't imagine what the cost of repair would be. Even if it can be pieced together correctly.
Yes torque will pull you off the line better but I can bet that from a roll the .2 would not fare as well as the published numbers would have it. Launch on these cars is completely electronically regulated and torque will help launch the car. I never thought much about launch since I chose a 7 speed.
Ah yeah brakes. I'll give you that much a few mm are going to perform better. If the car was lighter It probably wouldn't need them though. What's the curb wieght of a .2 with RWS and a lift? Bet its close to 3400 lbs.
Sure porsche engineers had to boost the crap out of it so it can overcome many of its inherent issues.
I know I'm sounding a bit harsh but if the N/A didn't exist than I'd be forced to go down that road. Reluctantly so but would eventually give in. For now though I'm very content knowing that the best years for porsche are behind them and for gasoline power ones especially.
10-09-2016, 02:41 AM
#105
Its not "just one published number" its many.
The total power developed under the torque curve is higher than the GTS - its that simple. The suspension has been retuned (it sits 10mm lower than the last S), the PTV is now an electronic implementation and linked to the PDK inputs (the latest version of PTV plus - the GTS has an earlier version of this), and the electric assist steering improved - the tires on the S are 245 and 305 (so same as the GTS). The brakes are 350mm and 330mm with six pot and four pot calipers front and rear (GTS has 340mm and 330mm). The brake rotors now have aluminium top hats to further improve cooling.
The boost level is 16 psi (max) - that isn't a lot of boost. The engine is nowhere near maxed out, the same can't be said for the NA 3.8.
The engine is a flat six with displacement of 3l, its a mildly boosted twin turbo, the firing order is the same - so it sounds like a very slightly muffled flat six - in the cabin you can barely tell the difference - its simply sounds like a flat six.
Oh and around Hockenheim (short) the GTS did a time of 1:10.9 as published by Sport Auto in Germany (Vs 1:09.6 for the 991.2 S also published by Sport Auto)
The reality is the GTS in the 991.1 line has a mildly retuned 3.8l and only differs from the 991.1S after ~ 6700rpm (note this is very different to the 981S - 981GTS where the difference occurs from 4000rpm on). In essence, the 991 GTS gives a small increase in HP over a very small part of the rev range relative to the 991.1S. The reality is power development drops off a cliff after 7600rpm for both the 991.1S and GTS.
On a pull its clear the 991.2 S will go away from the 991.1S/GTS its clear from the torque curve (and thats without hitting the sports response button which comes with sports chrono). Porsche figures for 80-120kmh GTS 2.5s and 991.2 S 2.3S (the latter without sport response).
This is worth a look. Listen to and have a think about what Randy Pobst says at the end - its what those of us who have actually driven the car know and understand.
Porsche has thrown the kitchen sink at the 991.2 line, they had to because of the "sky will fall in crowd" - they have produced a fantastic off the shelf sports car, one that is more engaging and sharper than its predecessor in every way (as shown by all performance metrics) and can lay down fabulously quick lap times.
The across the board changes work in combination to produce an outcome that is greater than the sum of the parts. Guess what it even sounds good and better still the engine has a lot more to give.
The total power developed under the torque curve is higher than the GTS - its that simple. The suspension has been retuned (it sits 10mm lower than the last S), the PTV is now an electronic implementation and linked to the PDK inputs (the latest version of PTV plus - the GTS has an earlier version of this), and the electric assist steering improved - the tires on the S are 245 and 305 (so same as the GTS). The brakes are 350mm and 330mm with six pot and four pot calipers front and rear (GTS has 340mm and 330mm). The brake rotors now have aluminium top hats to further improve cooling.
The boost level is 16 psi (max) - that isn't a lot of boost. The engine is nowhere near maxed out, the same can't be said for the NA 3.8.
The engine is a flat six with displacement of 3l, its a mildly boosted twin turbo, the firing order is the same - so it sounds like a very slightly muffled flat six - in the cabin you can barely tell the difference - its simply sounds like a flat six.
Oh and around Hockenheim (short) the GTS did a time of 1:10.9 as published by Sport Auto in Germany (Vs 1:09.6 for the 991.2 S also published by Sport Auto)
The reality is the GTS in the 991.1 line has a mildly retuned 3.8l and only differs from the 991.1S after ~ 6700rpm (note this is very different to the 981S - 981GTS where the difference occurs from 4000rpm on). In essence, the 991 GTS gives a small increase in HP over a very small part of the rev range relative to the 991.1S. The reality is power development drops off a cliff after 7600rpm for both the 991.1S and GTS.
On a pull its clear the 991.2 S will go away from the 991.1S/GTS its clear from the torque curve (and thats without hitting the sports response button which comes with sports chrono). Porsche figures for 80-120kmh GTS 2.5s and 991.2 S 2.3S (the latter without sport response).
This is worth a look. Listen to and have a think about what Randy Pobst says at the end - its what those of us who have actually driven the car know and understand.
Porsche has thrown the kitchen sink at the 991.2 line, they had to because of the "sky will fall in crowd" - they have produced a fantastic off the shelf sports car, one that is more engaging and sharper than its predecessor in every way (as shown by all performance metrics) and can lay down fabulously quick lap times.
The across the board changes work in combination to produce an outcome that is greater than the sum of the parts. Guess what it even sounds good
and better still the engine has a lot more to give.
Last edited by randr; 10-09-2016 at 05:08 AM.