Lord, is the 991.2 a fast car!
10-09-2016, 01:03 PM
#106
Banned
Its not "just one published number" its many.
The total power developed under the torque curve is higher than the GTS - its that simple. The suspension has been retuned (it sits 10mm lower than the last S), the PTV is now an electronic implementation and linked to the PDK inputs (the latest version of PTV plus - the GTS has an earlier version of this), and the electric assist steering improved - the tires on the S are 245 and 305 (so same as the GTS). The brakes are 350mm and 330mm with six pot and four pot calipers front and rear (GTS has 340mm and 330mm). The brake rotors now have aluminium top hats to further improve cooling.
The boost level is 16 psi (max) - that isn't a lot of boost. The engine is nowhere near maxed out, the same can't be said for the NA 3.8.
The engine is a flat six with displacement of 3l, its a mildly boosted twin turbo, the firing order is the same - so it sounds like a very slightly muffled flat six - in the cabin you can barely tell the difference - its simply sounds like a flat six.
Oh and around Hockenheim (short) the GTS did a time of 1:10.9 as published by Sport Auto in Germany (Vs 1:09.6 for the 991.2 S also published by Sport Auto)
The reality is the GTS in the 991.1 line has a mildly retuned 3.8l and only differs from the 991.1S after ~ 6700rpm (note this is very different to the 981S - 981GTS where the difference occurs from 4000rpm on). In essence, the 991 GTS gives a small increase in HP over a very small part of the rev range relative to the 991.1S. The reality is power development drops off a cliff after 7600rpm for both the 991.1S and GTS.
On a pull its clear the 991.2 S will go away from the 991.1S/GTS its clear from the torque curve (and thats without hitting the sports response button which comes with sports chrono). Porsche figures for 80-120kmh GTS 2.5s and 991.2 S 2.3S (the latter without sport response).
This is worth a look. Listen to and have a think about what Randy Pobst says at the end - its what those of us who have actually driven the car know and understand.
Porsche has thrown the kitchen sink at the 991.2 line, they had to because of the "sky will fall in crowd" - they have produced a fantastic off the shelf sports car, one that is more engaging and sharper than its predecessor in every way (as shown by all performance metrics) and can lay down fabulously quick lap times.
The across the board changes work in combination to produce an outcome that is greater than the sum of the parts. Guess what it even sounds good
and better still the engine has a lot more to give.
The total power developed under the torque curve is higher than the GTS - its that simple. The suspension has been retuned (it sits 10mm lower than the last S), the PTV is now an electronic implementation and linked to the PDK inputs (the latest version of PTV plus - the GTS has an earlier version of this), and the electric assist steering improved - the tires on the S are 245 and 305 (so same as the GTS). The brakes are 350mm and 330mm with six pot and four pot calipers front and rear (GTS has 340mm and 330mm). The brake rotors now have aluminium top hats to further improve cooling.
The boost level is 16 psi (max) - that isn't a lot of boost. The engine is nowhere near maxed out, the same can't be said for the NA 3.8.
The engine is a flat six with displacement of 3l, its a mildly boosted twin turbo, the firing order is the same - so it sounds like a very slightly muffled flat six - in the cabin you can barely tell the difference - its simply sounds like a flat six.
Oh and around Hockenheim (short) the GTS did a time of 1:10.9 as published by Sport Auto in Germany (Vs 1:09.6 for the 991.2 S also published by Sport Auto)
The reality is the GTS in the 991.1 line has a mildly retuned 3.8l and only differs from the 991.1S after ~ 6700rpm (note this is very different to the 981S - 981GTS where the difference occurs from 4000rpm on). In essence, the 991 GTS gives a small increase in HP over a very small part of the rev range relative to the 991.1S. The reality is power development drops off a cliff after 7600rpm for both the 991.1S and GTS.
On a pull its clear the 991.2 S will go away from the 991.1S/GTS its clear from the torque curve (and thats without hitting the sports response button which comes with sports chrono). Porsche figures for 80-120kmh GTS 2.5s and 991.2 S 2.3S (the latter without sport response).
This is worth a look. Listen to and have a think about what Randy Pobst says at the end - its what those of us who have actually driven the car know and understand.
Porsche has thrown the kitchen sink at the 991.2 line, they had to because of the "sky will fall in crowd" - they have produced a fantastic off the shelf sports car, one that is more engaging and sharper than its predecessor in every way (as shown by all performance metrics) and can lay down fabulously quick lap times.
The across the board changes work in combination to produce an outcome that is greater than the sum of the parts. Guess what it even sounds good
and better still the engine has a lot more to give.Taking one published number and running away with it doesn't mean to much. Keeping in mind that there isn't a published number for how fast around the Ring the GTS is.
Lets see. 991.2 is only 3 seconds faster than the .1 narrow body S.
The .1 AND .2 are more comparable than one would think. Advancement in the p zero rubber for one can close the gap along with equal drivers . .2 driver is noticable faster than his predecessor. The name escapes me..
Manufacturers choose the rate of progression and it isn't by accident that cars seem faster. It's a manipulated outcome.
What beside RWS does the .2 have to actually offer over a wide body. Did porsche upgrade the shocks and suspension? Seriously doubt it. In fact I would venture to say that the added wieght in the rear would require RWS in order to offset a deficit in handling. It becomes a necessity otherwise a deficiency would occur. Call it progression but I call it a bandaid with a positive outcome. Since it over compensates and adds a degree of agility. Along with wieght and complexity. Hope no one hits a curb with it. Can't imagine what the cost of repair would be. Even if it can be pieced together correctly.
Yes torque will pull you off the line better but I can bet that from a roll the .2 would not fare as well as the published numbers would have it. Launch on these cars is completely electronically regulated and torque will help launch the car. I never thought much about launch since I chose a 7 speed.
Ah yeah brakes. I'll give you that much a few mm are going to perform better. If the car was lighter It probably wouldn't need them though. What's the curb wieght of a .2 with RWS and a lift? Bet its close to 3400 lbs.
Sure porsche engineers had to boost the crap out of it so it can overcome many of its inherent issues.
I know I'm sounding a bit harsh but if the N/A didn't exist than I'd be forced to go down that road. Reluctantly so but would eventually give in. For now though I'm very content knowing that the best years for porsche are behind them and for gasoline power ones especially.
Lets see. 991.2 is only 3 seconds faster than the .1 narrow body S.
The .1 AND .2 are more comparable than one would think. Advancement in the p zero rubber for one can close the gap along with equal drivers . .2 driver is noticable faster than his predecessor. The name escapes me..
Manufacturers choose the rate of progression and it isn't by accident that cars seem faster. It's a manipulated outcome.
What beside RWS does the .2 have to actually offer over a wide body. Did porsche upgrade the shocks and suspension? Seriously doubt it. In fact I would venture to say that the added wieght in the rear would require RWS in order to offset a deficit in handling. It becomes a necessity otherwise a deficiency would occur. Call it progression but I call it a bandaid with a positive outcome. Since it over compensates and adds a degree of agility. Along with wieght and complexity. Hope no one hits a curb with it. Can't imagine what the cost of repair would be. Even if it can be pieced together correctly.
Yes torque will pull you off the line better but I can bet that from a roll the .2 would not fare as well as the published numbers would have it. Launch on these cars is completely electronically regulated and torque will help launch the car. I never thought much about launch since I chose a 7 speed.
Ah yeah brakes. I'll give you that much a few mm are going to perform better. If the car was lighter It probably wouldn't need them though. What's the curb wieght of a .2 with RWS and a lift? Bet its close to 3400 lbs.
Sure porsche engineers had to boost the crap out of it so it can overcome many of its inherent issues.
I know I'm sounding a bit harsh but if the N/A didn't exist than I'd be forced to go down that road. Reluctantly so but would eventually give in. For now though I'm very content knowing that the best years for porsche are behind them and for gasoline power ones especially.
Believe me. I've bin a turbo guy for over two count them two decaded. Nothing can replace the underachieving N/A. Sound, feel and that buildup of power. Nothing! Sure there will be faster cars but the romance involved is orgasmic and doesnt leave one with blue *****. Turbos are boring as $uck. Yeah its artificial. There is said it. It's like a woman with a boob job. Raises you **** until you get the bill. Or the next guy with a chip or bigger wallet steps in. Natural is the way people want it. That's why whole foods is such a success.
10-09-2016, 02:33 PM
#107
Originally Posted by jimbo1111
You have got to be kidding with that comment. Peak hp for the power kit is at 7500 rpm. The engine begs for more rpm. I will admit that its work extracting it's power but in the capable hands it's nothing short of beastly before shut down occurs.
Believe me. I've bin a turbo guy for over two count them two decaded. Nothing can replace the underachieving N/A. Sound, feel and that buildup of power. Nothing! Sure there will be faster cars but the romance involved is orgasmic and doesnt leave one with blue *****. Turbos are boring as $uck. Yeah its artificial. There is said it. It's like a woman with a boob job. Raises you **** until you get the bill. Or the next guy with a chip or bigger wallet steps in. Natural is the way people want it. That's why whole foods is such a success.
Believe me. I've bin a turbo guy for over two count them two decaded. Nothing can replace the underachieving N/A. Sound, feel and that buildup of power. Nothing! Sure there will be faster cars but the romance involved is orgasmic and doesnt leave one with blue *****. Turbos are boring as $uck. Yeah its artificial. There is said it. It's like a woman with a boob job. Raises you **** until you get the bill. Or the next guy with a chip or bigger wallet steps in. Natural is the way people want it. That's why whole foods is such a success.
Basically it's different strokes for different folks.
I love the NA motor compared to the base 991.2 non-PSE that I test drove. With or without the addition of a PSE, I would still miss the induction noise.
We just weren't compelled enough to jump into a .2
10-09-2016, 03:05 PM
#108
Drifting
Too bad Porsche did not realize years ago that turbocharging was the way to make the very best sports car engines. It took government environmental regulations to make them wise up. Pity they are not smarter. 
10-09-2016, 03:09 PM
#109
Instructor
10-09-2016, 03:29 PM
#110
Instructor
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I have no fundamental issue with turbo cars, though admittedly my previous AMG has really put me off turbos. What shouldn't exist are low displacement NA engines. 3.8L is pushing it. Admittedly though it sounds gorgeous. Once the new GTS arrives, I will definitely check it out and if I cant live without it, trade my GTS in for a new one.
Ideally, I would want a 3.8 turbo or larger displacement NA, midengine RWD.
Ideally, I would want a 3.8 turbo or larger displacement NA, midengine RWD.
10-09-2016, 07:59 PM
#111
Jimbo, the 7500rpm is the peak as we all know - after that it is making less power. Chase it to the limiter all you want, sure its fun - its just not effective driving.
I have driven 500HP 2l Cosworth engined STIs, they have plenty of soul and an 8000 rpm red line. So your commentary on turbocharged cars, from my perspective is nonsense.
Those that think of turbocharged cars as somehow less emotional simply haven't driven good ones or as I have observed many times, don't know how to drive them well.
As I have said previously, I currently own a 981 GTS and I have driven the 991.2S . I concur with Randy Pobst comments - the 991.2S "is a superb drivers car"
I have put my money where my mouth is and ordered a 991.2S in guards red with rear axle steering. I have done this based on a position derived from knowledge and not ignorance.
I have driven 500HP 2l Cosworth engined STIs, they have plenty of soul and an 8000 rpm red line. So your commentary on turbocharged cars, from my perspective is nonsense.
Those that think of turbocharged cars as somehow less emotional simply haven't driven good ones or as I have observed many times, don't know how to drive them well.
As I have said previously, I currently own a 981 GTS and I have driven the 991.2S . I concur with Randy Pobst comments - the 991.2S "is a superb drivers car"
I have put my money where my mouth is and ordered a 991.2S in guards red with rear axle steering. I have done this based on a position derived from knowledge and not ignorance.
10-09-2016, 08:51 PM
#112
Revving beyond peak power output puts your post-shift RPMs further up on the power curve than they you would be if you shifted at the peak, which is why if you're driving aggressively in a PDK car in auto it will always rev until redline before shifting.
10-09-2016, 08:53 PM
#113
Banned
Jimbo, the 7500rpm is the peak as we all know - after that it is making less power. Chase it to the limiter all you want, sure its fun - its just not effective driving.
I have driven 500HP 2l Cosworth engined STIs, they have plenty of soul and an 8000 rpm red line. So your commentary on turbocharged cars, from my perspective is nonsense.
Those that think of turbocharged cars as somehow less emotional simply haven't driven good ones or as I have observed many times, don't know how to drive them well.
As I have said previously, I currently own a 981 GTS and I have driven the 991.2S . I concur with Randy Pobst comments - the 991.2S "is a superb drivers car"
I have put my money where my mouth is and ordered a 991.2S in guards red with rear axle steering. I have done this based on a position derived from knowledge and not ignorance.
I have driven 500HP 2l Cosworth engined STIs, they have plenty of soul and an 8000 rpm red line. So your commentary on turbocharged cars, from my perspective is nonsense.
Those that think of turbocharged cars as somehow less emotional simply haven't driven good ones or as I have observed many times, don't know how to drive them well.
As I have said previously, I currently own a 981 GTS and I have driven the 991.2S . I concur with Randy Pobst comments - the 991.2S "is a superb drivers car"
I have put my money where my mouth is and ordered a 991.2S in guards red with rear axle steering. I have done this based on a position derived from knowledge and not ignorance.
Now I'm not at all upset with our wonderful porsche engineers. Because they were given a challenge and I believe they have done a hell of a job. Im not even upset about the reasoning behind the change. Yes I believe in global warming and I thing it is a real problem that must be addressed by our generation. What I'm upset about is that the sales and marketing is trying to sell me ice when I live in Alaska. I know what I'm buying and why. Don't make a fool out of me while doing it. It's an inferior product that I could possibly stomach. Just don't candy rap it into something it's not.
10-10-2016, 03:09 AM
#114
Corners are more important than straights Jimbo, I genuinely don't know how you come to the conclusion that the 991.2S is an inferior product - its just different, but inferior its not. How about we agree to disagree
10-10-2016, 08:44 AM
#115
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You have got to be kidding with that comment. Peak hp for the power kit is at 7500 rpm. The engine begs for more rpm. I will admit that its work extracting it's power but in the capable hands it's nothing short of beastly before shut down occurs.
Believe me. I've bin a turbo guy for over two count them two decaded. Nothing can replace the underachieving N/A. Sound, feel and that buildup of power. Nothing! Sure there will be faster cars but the romance involved is orgasmic and doesnt leave one with blue *****. Turbos are boring as $uck. Yeah its artificial. There is said it. It's like a woman with a boob job. Raises you **** until you get the bill. Or the next guy with a chip or bigger wallet steps in. Natural is the way people want it. That's why whole foods is such a success.
Believe me. I've bin a turbo guy for over two count them two decaded. Nothing can replace the underachieving N/A. Sound, feel and that buildup of power. Nothing! Sure there will be faster cars but the romance involved is orgasmic and doesnt leave one with blue *****. Turbos are boring as $uck. Yeah its artificial. There is said it. It's like a woman with a boob job. Raises you **** until you get the bill. Or the next guy with a chip or bigger wallet steps in. Natural is the way people want it. That's why whole foods is such a success.
10-10-2016, 09:25 AM
#116
Race Car
[/QUOTE]What I'm upset about is that the sales and marketing is trying to sell me ice when I live in Alaska. I know what I'm buying and why. Don't make a fool out of me while doing it. It's an inferior product that I could possibly stomach. Just don't candy rap it into something it's not.[/QUOTE]
The new S is faster than the old S with a Powerkit, the steering and PDK work better, there is no turbo lag in spirited driving because the engine never falls below where the boost is, improved front wheel steering software, rear wheel steering and improved PASM deliver better and more engaging handling dynamics and if you have PCM with navigation you have a 6 year newer technology.
Pretty good candy, I think. And as well wrapped as my 991.1 C2S.
The new S is faster than the old S with a Powerkit, the steering and PDK work better, there is no turbo lag in spirited driving because the engine never falls below where the boost is, improved front wheel steering software, rear wheel steering and improved PASM deliver better and more engaging handling dynamics and if you have PCM with navigation you have a 6 year newer technology.
Pretty good candy, I think. And as well wrapped as my 991.1 C2S.
10-10-2016, 09:32 AM
#117
the good thing about all the add ons like the rear wheel steering and the improved PASM makes you think that the PDCC is going to be a not so often ticked box. curious if anyone feels otherwise
10-10-2016, 10:10 AM
#118
Banned
What I'm upset about is that the sales and marketing is trying to sell me ice when I live in Alaska. I know what I'm buying and why. Don't make a fool out of me while doing it. It's an inferior product that I could possibly stomach. Just don't candy rap it into something it's not.[/QUOTE]
The new S is faster than the old S with a Powerkit, the steering and PDK work better, there is no turbo lag in spirited driving because the engine never falls below where the boost is, improved front wheel steering software, rear wheel steering and improved PASM deliver better and more engaging handling dynamics and if you have PCM with navigation you have a 6 year newer technology.
Pretty good candy, I think. And as well wrapped as my 991.1 C2S.[/QUOTE]
Yes I would have preferred seeing those advancements in a N/A platform. not a game changer because most of it is just hype. Seriously though. Porsche marketing is a world of spin. According to them the suspension has bin dropped by 10mm so many times that by now the car no longer needs wheels because it sits on the ground.
The new S is faster than the old S with a Powerkit, the steering and PDK work better, there is no turbo lag in spirited driving because the engine never falls below where the boost is, improved front wheel steering software, rear wheel steering and improved PASM deliver better and more engaging handling dynamics and if you have PCM with navigation you have a 6 year newer technology.
Pretty good candy, I think. And as well wrapped as my 991.1 C2S.[/QUOTE]
Yes I would have preferred seeing those advancements in a N/A platform. not a game changer because most of it is just hype. Seriously though. Porsche marketing is a world of spin. According to them the suspension has bin dropped by 10mm so many times that by now the car no longer needs wheels because it sits on the ground.
10-10-2016, 10:29 AM
#119
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Yes I would have preferred seeing those advancements in a N/A platform. not a game changer because most of it is just hype. Seriously though. Porsche marketing is a world of spin. According to them the suspension has bin dropped by 10mm so many times that by now the car no longer needs wheels because it sits on the ground.
Yes I would have preferred seeing those advancements in a N/A platform. not a game changer because most of it is just hype. Seriously though. Porsche marketing is a world of spin. According to them the suspension has bin dropped by 10mm so many times that by now the car no longer needs wheels because it sits on the ground.
This reminds me of when Harley Davidson when through it's boom and built all the mega bike dealers. At that point you could buy a new bike for sticker and sell it 2 years later for the same. They created a lifestyle and the marketing engine was highly successful. Similarly, Apple is a marketing and lifestyle company - not a technology company. Thank goodness Porsche still makes the best cars on the planet.
hmmm, GT cars in the Porsche lineup sound a lot like the Harley transaction in terms of selling 2 years later for sticker? I love my Porsche watch, hat, coffee cup, jacket, etc... (am careful to only wear one at a time!) Porsche would never turn into a marketing company that needed to sell cars to make money instead of a car builder first... right?
10-10-2016, 11:33 AM
#120
Burning Brakes
The car is already as low as it can be in the USA. It is in fact lower in other countries but it's dropped to the legal limit here with the sport trim.
This reminds me of when Harley Davidson when through it's boom and built all the mega bike dealers. At that point you could buy a new bike for sticker and sell it 2 years later for the same. They created a lifestyle and the marketing engine was highly successful. Similarly, Apple is a marketing and lifestyle company - not a technology company. Thank goodness Porsche still makes the best cars on the planet.
hmmm, GT cars in the Porsche lineup sound a lot like the Harley transaction in terms of selling 2 years later for sticker? I love my Porsche watch, hat, coffee cup, jacket, etc... (am careful to only wear one at a time!) Porsche would never turn into a marketing company that needed to sell cars to make money instead of a car builder first... right?
This reminds me of when Harley Davidson when through it's boom and built all the mega bike dealers. At that point you could buy a new bike for sticker and sell it 2 years later for the same. They created a lifestyle and the marketing engine was highly successful. Similarly, Apple is a marketing and lifestyle company - not a technology company. Thank goodness Porsche still makes the best cars on the planet.
hmmm, GT cars in the Porsche lineup sound a lot like the Harley transaction in terms of selling 2 years later for sticker? I love my Porsche watch, hat, coffee cup, jacket, etc... (am careful to only wear one at a time!) Porsche would never turn into a marketing company that needed to sell cars to make money instead of a car builder first... right?