Lord, is the 991.2 a fast car!
10-07-2016, 12:17 PM
#61
For some people, how fast a car goes is part of what puts a smile on their face. And the idea that the HP and torque of the .2 isn't usable on the street is nonsense. We're not talking about a 918 here. I'd have more fun in a 500hp 911 than I would in a 400hp 911, particularly if the latter had more usable torque. I'm not a fan of FI, but I'm honest enough to admit that these new cars are pretty awesome.
With my 07 Cayman S, as much as I love the car I would probably enjoy it more with more power. With the 991.1 I've never really felt limited by the power. I've never driven the 991.2 so I wasn't commenting on it directly, but just saying some of these super cars like the 918 have more power than what's usable on the street. Are a lot of people launching their car at every stop light and upset it's not fast enough?
10-07-2016, 12:38 PM
#62
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks you can't get any use out of the additional power in a high HP/TQ car on the street has simply never owned one. And when you're talking about the .2, we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
10-07-2016, 12:53 PM
#63
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we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
10-07-2016, 04:27 PM
#64
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Let's do a quick thought experiment and bound the argument with two extreme examples.
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
For the non interstate street, my 981 Boxster S is a little much at 315 HP. For accelerating on the interstate or passing, I want more HP but I am still in triple digits in seconds on the on ramps. If I wanted rip roaring HP, I'd get a Mustang. Not!
I can afford any of the cars in the Porsche lineup but I am getting a base Targa 4 with a ton of options. I've driven the 991.2S and Base and I just don't need or want all that HP.
What I really want is to get shorter gears. I need to accelerate through three consecutive gear shifts to really enjoy the car but by that time, I am going 100+
Sorry for over analyzing.
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
For the non interstate street, my 981 Boxster S is a little much at 315 HP. For accelerating on the interstate or passing, I want more HP but I am still in triple digits in seconds on the on ramps. If I wanted rip roaring HP, I'd get a Mustang. Not!
I can afford any of the cars in the Porsche lineup but I am getting a base Targa 4 with a ton of options. I've driven the 991.2S and Base and I just don't need or want all that HP.
What I really want is to get shorter gears. I need to accelerate through three consecutive gear shifts to really enjoy the car but by that time, I am going 100+
Sorry for over analyzing.
10-07-2016, 05:02 PM
#67
By usable, I'm not talking about a single power level. I'm talking about the fact that the additional power makes driving more pleasurable and fun in all sorts of situations, because it's present all through the power band. You don't have to be wringing the car out to feel the benefit and/or use it all the time.
10-07-2016, 05:07 PM
#68
Let's do a quick thought experiment and bound the argument with two extreme examples.
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
Let's keep it simple. Would you rather have a car that had 100 more ft lbs of torque in the lower rev range and went 0-60 in 3 seconds, or one with 100 less and went 0-60 in 4 seconds? All other things equal, most people would choose the former, not just because it's going to be more fun if they decide to wring it out, but because that additional power is going to make driving everywhere easier and more pleasurable. Drive a high hp/high torque car someday and then come back and tell us how you prefer a base Cayman.
I'll ask again, all you guys that think the power doesn't matter, have any of you actually owned a high hp car, say with 450+HP? I have and I used that additional power all the time, without ever getting a single ticket or having a single accident. The idea that more power is marketing fluff and a waste is nonsense. BTW, I intend on ordering a base Carrera next, because it's fast enough for me and has less lag, but I get why someone would go for the S.
10-07-2016, 05:17 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
When Porsche used to make 911s back in the 70s-80s with 100 and change-200HP, American run of the mill cars already had V8s and over 300HP. Guess which one was more fun?
The 911 has always been a car for the connoisseur,for the gentleman driver that has a fine taste in automobiles. And it always and I mean ALWAYS was more than the sum of its parts.
So power is not everything,especially on the roads we're using today that have been designed in the 50s or whatever...
The 911 has always been a car for the connoisseur,for the gentleman driver that has a fine taste in automobiles. And it always and I mean ALWAYS was more than the sum of its parts.
So power is not everything,especially on the roads we're using today that have been designed in the 50s or whatever...
10-07-2016, 05:19 PM
#70
I do find it funny that everyone's heads are exploding because it's turning out that the .2 is a bit of a beast.
But, but, but, it must've been a cold day...and different drivers...cold tires...wasn't windy...track isn't a good location for comparison...but, but, but...
But, but, but, it must've been a cold day...and different drivers...cold tires...wasn't windy...track isn't a good location for comparison...but, but, but...
10-07-2016, 05:36 PM
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Then why would you drive a Porsche at all?
By usable, I'm not talking about a single power level. I'm talking about the fact that the additional power makes driving more pleasurable and fun in all sorts of situations, because it's present all through the power band. You don't have to be wringing the car out to feel the benefit and/or use it all the time.
By usable, I'm not talking about a single power level. I'm talking about the fact that the additional power makes driving more pleasurable and fun in all sorts of situations, because it's present all through the power band. You don't have to be wringing the car out to feel the benefit and/or use it all the time.
10-07-2016, 06:53 PM
#72
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You're making a nonsense argument. Did you miss the part where I said, we're not talking about a supercar here?
Let's keep it simple. Would you rather have a car that had 100 more ft lbs of torque in the lower rev range and went 0-60 in 3 seconds, or one with 100 less and went 0-60 in 4 seconds? All other things equal, most people would choose the former, not just because it's going to be more fun if they decide to wring it out, but because that additional power is going to make driving everywhere easier and more pleasurable. Drive a high hp/high torque car someday and then come back and tell us how you prefer a base Cayman.
I'll ask again, all you guys that think the power doesn't matter, have any of you actually owned a high hp car, say with 450+HP? I have and I used that additional power all the time, without ever getting a single ticket or having a single accident. The idea that more power is marketing fluff and a waste is nonsense. BTW, I intend on ordering a base Carrera next, because it's fast enough for me and has less lag, but I get why someone would go for the S.
Let's keep it simple. Would you rather have a car that had 100 more ft lbs of torque in the lower rev range and went 0-60 in 3 seconds, or one with 100 less and went 0-60 in 4 seconds? All other things equal, most people would choose the former, not just because it's going to be more fun if they decide to wring it out, but because that additional power is going to make driving everywhere easier and more pleasurable. Drive a high hp/high torque car someday and then come back and tell us how you prefer a base Cayman.
I'll ask again, all you guys that think the power doesn't matter, have any of you actually owned a high hp car, say with 450+HP? I have and I used that additional power all the time, without ever getting a single ticket or having a single accident. The idea that more power is marketing fluff and a waste is nonsense. BTW, I intend on ordering a base Carrera next, because it's fast enough for me and has less lag, but I get why someone would go for the S.
Sorry but I have to disagree. I owned a 2001 Toyota MR2 Spyder with 138hp. Manual top with 5MT (I recall). It was a total blast to drive. I loved rowing through the gears in that car. I miss it and should never have sold it. My 315HP Boxster has better looks, sound and prestige but that is about it. (granted all of that makes me feel fantastic).
I'm not saying power doesn't matter. I will say that too much power deadens the experience for me. If you are so impressed with HP, why not get a Mustang?
10-07-2016, 07:02 PM
#73
[QUOTE If you are so impressed with HP, why not get a Mustang?[/QUOTE]
There obviously many reasons. The one most pertinent to this discussion is that the 991.2 in any of its configurations, but especially a 991.2S, accelerates faster than a mustang.
I have owned an enjoyed a variety of US muscle cars. They offer a lot of "bang for the buck". They do not, however, compare to a contemporary 991.2 in many ways. That still does not mean that a similar, or higher level, of straight line acceleration in a Porsche does not add to the pleasure of driving it for some of us.
If I were prepared to pay the cost, I would drive a TTS with zero to sixty acceleration well under 3.0 seconds.
Everyone has their own subjective opinion of desirable performance. Arguing as to which is most "correct" or "reasonable" is an exercise in futility.
There obviously many reasons. The one most pertinent to this discussion is that the 991.2 in any of its configurations, but especially a 991.2S, accelerates faster than a mustang.
I have owned an enjoyed a variety of US muscle cars. They offer a lot of "bang for the buck". They do not, however, compare to a contemporary 991.2 in many ways. That still does not mean that a similar, or higher level, of straight line acceleration in a Porsche does not add to the pleasure of driving it for some of us.
If I were prepared to pay the cost, I would drive a TTS with zero to sixty acceleration well under 3.0 seconds.
Everyone has their own subjective opinion of desirable performance. Arguing as to which is most "correct" or "reasonable" is an exercise in futility.
Last edited by verstraete; 10-07-2016 at 07:19 PM.
10-07-2016, 07:08 PM
#74
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Who said anything about top speed? 0-60, 1/4 mile, lap times, getting off the line driving around town, getting on the freeway, and/or making a quick pass on a two lane road have little to nothing to do with top speed and everything to do with how much and where a car makes power.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks you can't get any use out of the additional power in a high HP/TQ car on the street has simply never owned one. And when you're talking about the .2, we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks you can't get any use out of the additional power in a high HP/TQ car on the street has simply never owned one. And when you're talking about the .2, we're not talking about a 600hp supercar, but rather a car that simply makes more power than the previous car and in a much more usable way. To deride the .2S as being too powerful to be used on the street and all marketing fluff, is absolute nonsense.
Spend a day driving a Cayman S and a .1 C2S back to back and then tell me that the additional HP and TQ in the Carrera isn't usable on the street.
The additional HP of the 991.2 is negligible at best. The difference here is HOW it makes power vs the 991.1.
I know you know that... but for anyone out there window shopping thinking 20hp is mind blowing will be mislead. It does make significantly more toq but again, its not just the number but the power "under the curve" as they say.
10-07-2016, 07:11 PM
#75
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Let's do a quick thought experiment and bound the argument with two extreme examples.
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
For the non interstate street, my 981 Boxster S is a little much at 315 HP. For accelerating on the interstate or passing, I want more HP but I am still in triple digits in seconds on the on ramps. If I wanted rip roaring HP, I'd get a Mustang. Not!
I can afford any of the cars in the Porsche lineup but I am getting a base Targa 4 with a ton of options. I've driven the 991.2S and Base and I just don't need or want all that HP.
What I really want is to get shorter gears. I need to accelerate through three consecutive gear shifts to really enjoy the car but by that time, I am going 100+
Sorry for over analyzing.
Let's assume a car could do 0 - 60 in 0.1 seconds. Is that useable for the street? Is it fun? I would say no to both.
Let's take a Honda civic that can do 0 - 60 in 8 secs. Is that useable on the street? Of course. Fun maybe, but not for me.
So the usability factor changes from a yes to a no somewhere between 8 secs and 0.1 secs. But more HP does not equal usability and certainly not necessarily fun for the street anyway. The point at which each of us transitions from useable to nonuseable is different but we will each have our point of transition. Archimedes' point must be pretty high.....maybe 2 secs?
For the non interstate street, my 981 Boxster S is a little much at 315 HP. For accelerating on the interstate or passing, I want more HP but I am still in triple digits in seconds on the on ramps. If I wanted rip roaring HP, I'd get a Mustang. Not!
I can afford any of the cars in the Porsche lineup but I am getting a base Targa 4 with a ton of options. I've driven the 991.2S and Base and I just don't need or want all that HP.
What I really want is to get shorter gears. I need to accelerate through three consecutive gear shifts to really enjoy the car but by that time, I am going 100+
Sorry for over analyzing.