Z356

Jerry:

I will briefly add below some comments to your statements.
My comments represent my understanding of PTS, which
admittedly is incomplete (although I work at understanding
more of it each day). I think you are pretty set in your beliefs
...so I doubt that I will change your mind on the subject matter.
You either get 'PTS'...or you don't. If it's not for you, simply
ignore it & move along. But for a lot of us, it's one of the
most attractive options that we can order on our Porsches.
No right or wrong...we are just marching to the beat of a
different drum!



****

My purpose in responding to your statements is to further
the PTS conversation among the Rennlist community who
is, and continues to be, very interested in PTS & how it works.
For your information, just four of my threads on the subject
of PTS & Custom Ordering have over one million views. So
the subject is of interest to a great number of folks in our
Rennlist community:



****

There is some evidence that PAG has batch PTS production
at times. For sure the 10 (or so) Signal Green gt3's built in
March of 2015 were done at about the same time.

See post # 1013

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...y-gt3s-68.html

And there is no doubt that the bulk of the 991 gt3 RS done
in PTS were pushed towards Spring 2016 building dates.
Why the batching...we really don't yet know why. We can
speculate...but we really don't know the exact reason as of
this moment in time.

*****
That is a fairly new rumor started that appeared at a recent
Rennlist thread:

See post #60
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...11r-pts-4.html

I have contacted my sources at PAG & PCNA two weeks ago
re: the '3rd Party' PTS painting rumor first posted by Unotaz
& Whoopsy in that 991 gt3 forum thread. I have yet to receive
a reply. Hopefully we will get a response & the matter clarified
for the record. I have my strong doubts...and I will not believe
it until it's confirmed by PAG.

****

You are dead wrong about this. In particular in the gt models,
PTS cars of a desirable color (as determined by the market)
are selling at higher prices than non-PTS cars. Mind you,
there are certain standard colors that can rival PTS in value.
'Ultraviolet' on the 991 gt3 RS comes to mind. And some
'faux' PTS colors in the 991 gt3 RS (Black, Racing Yellow
& Miami Blue') will have different values going forward
than true PTS. Of the later, I predict that 'Miami Blue'
will be more valuable than the other two. So, not all PTS
are equal. But, as a rule, a desirable Porsche model in
high demand will be more valuable in the secondary
market if been factory painted in a desirable PTS color.
This is fact.

****

This type of logic is proof once again that 'no good deed
goes unpunished'. In this case, Porsche did customers
a big favor by making the popular 'GT Silver' a regular
metallic paint at $710...rather than a 'special color' at
$3140:



We should be happy that PAG changed 'GT Silver'
to a $710 charge...rejoice in small gifts we often
receive from PAG!

****

The pricing for standard, metallic, special colors
and PTS is NOT at all dependent on the cost of the
paint, except in the case of normal metallic which
might be slightly more expensive. There used to
be an extra 'clear' coat on early metallics...but now
all colors at PAG, Uni/Solid & metallic, have a final
clear coat. So the extra cost of metallics is not that
great...but the manufacturer might justify the added
cost on the additional handling that metallics might
required!

The cost of the color option is mostly based on the
logistics of the painting & line assembly process.
Mass production at PAG is geared towards the
standard colors & metallics offered at any given year.
The 'Special Colors' are an accommodation Porsche
makes to customers to provide a few different colors
not in the normal palette offering...but at higher cost.
And it's nothing new at Porsche. My original paint
1970 911E in 'Crystal Blue' was a 'Special Color' that
year and cost a princely $185 back then! That was
quite an expensive option relative to the base price
of the car.

Most assembly line engineers & production people at
PAG probably dislike that Porsche offers 'Special Colors'
and 'PTS'. The whole thing is a royal a pain in the a**.
And they could make a case it's not even cost effective.
The special handling, logistics, planning (they might
argue) exceeds the additional income the company
receives for offering these special paints.

So again, it is you having an additional option of a
different color that you are being charged for...not
that the paint in question cost them more to obtain
from their paint suppliers! If & when a paint is extra
difficult to apply due to the metallic flakes (e.g. Oryx
White Pearl), Porsche is not shy about charging twice
the PTS price for its application! So a few PTS colors
are definitely more expensive than the rest...and that
is paint dependent. But that is the exception, not the
rule!



And remember that Porsche has bucked the trend &
not offered in vogue 'matte' / 'frozen' paints on its models,
unlike BMW, MB & Audi, to name but a few. So they
are very conservative with their color options!

And of course, 918 paints do not apply to this conversation.
We had some $63,000 'Liquid Metal' & even more expensive
two-tone paint schemes that were supplied on special requests
to VIP clients!

https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...r-stories.html

****

Finally, PTS is the ultimate customization of your exterior
& interior at Porsche. To prepare, organized, order the
paint from supplier, get it to each subcontractor that
might be painting a part or panel, etc., is a logistical
nightmare. And to insure that quality control of the
finish panels all match correctly is another hurdle that
makes the PTS process incredibly difficult for a mass
producer like Porsche. I used to tell Rennlisters that
at $5500, PTS was the bargain of the century at Porsche.
Because of demand, they have raised the price to almost
$7000...and I still think it's a bargain for what you get!
And if you chose the right model and the right color,
it's a gift that keeps on 'giving'!

****

Your conclusion is wrong. See my previous comments
above. But if you remember from the BMW tour,
they are the only major German manufacturer I
have ever visited in recent years that actually lets
you see the painting booth. In it, you see the paint
robots doing their job (no humans involved) & how
in seconds it can clean the nozzles & proceed to
paint the next car in a totally different color. So
'Special Colors' & 'PTS' pricing is not about the
time it takes to prepare a robot clean nuzzles &
change to a different paint...it's the preparation,
logistics, quality control that is an integral part of
those two color options & which has a high cost
to a manufacturer like Porsche!



****

No PTS Porsche in a desirable/high demand color
should ever need to reach Manheim. PTS works
in certain brands & certain models. So what applies
to Porsche doesn't necessarily apply to MB. And by
the way, there is only one n in the name of that auction
organization.

Hope this sheds some light on PTS...for some.



Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale

Parnelli

Eduardo-

What a thorough and excellent summary of PTS!

To everyone else, if u like PTS....fine. If not....that is certainly fine too. But please don't waste your and everybody else's time by saying that PTS cars offer no incremental value to the marketplace. The facts clearly state that it does. What you believe is what you believe. But facts are facts. Hell, I still don't really understand how an airplane stays in the air.....but it DOES whether I understand it or not!
109 of 9,800 is not a lot of supply.

Z356

Thanks Parnelli. Hope you are enjoying your
PTS 'Viper Green' 4S...



****

I read on this thread that you had some information
on PTS production vehicles in MY2015. Can you share
that information with me via pm or email?

And you also seemed to have information on PTS for
MY2014. I would like that information too if possible.

Thank you. I'll keep it confidential if the source needs
to be protected.

Here is what I posted on another thread relative to the
information you posted here on the 109 number of PTS
sport cars done in MY2015. That model year was rather
unusual in that a moratorium was declared by PAG in the
Fall of 2014 which curtailed PTS allocations quite a bit.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...1-gt3rs-3.html

****


But in general, historically speaking, PTS has been a very
slight percentage (usually between 1% & 2%) of total Porsche
production. Even back in 1970, when my 'Crystal Blue' 911E
Targa was built in a 'Special Color' which was ordered by only
16 folks in that entire model year (.01%), PTS was ordered by
1.3% of customers!

Christophorus no 89, october 1970, page 44.
Article by Richard von Frankenberg.

..." for the first 11 months of the 1970 model year, the picture is as follows ..."
..." August 1969 to June 1970 inclusive ... during this period a total of 15,749 porsches of types 911 and 914/6 were built ..."

This means - 1% = 157 cars, and (see below), 0.1% would be (unless my maths is worse than i thought!) 16 cars ...

the (what he calls) standard colours ...
- blood orange 14.48%
- ivory 13.75%
- signal orange 11.72%
- irish green 7.03%
- albert blue 6.81%
- conda green 6.56%
- bahia red 6.42%
- burgundy red 6.07%
- pastel blue 4.23%

then the special colours (note, he says only 1.3% were buyer match colours ... not included here):
- metallic silver 7.83%
- metallic blue 2.78%
- lemon yellow 2.10%
- black 1.22%
- metallic green 1.21%
- adriatic blue 1.21%
- light yellow 1.11%
- metallic red 0.96%
- sepia 0.79%
- olive 0.68%
- signal yellow 0.60%
- bush green 0.21%
- beige 0.10%
- signal green 0.10%
- porcelain blue 0.10%
- light red 0.10%
- ivory 0.10%
- crystal blue 0.10%
- turquoise 0.10%
- turquoise green 0.10%
- light grey 0.10%


https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...gt3-rs-82.html


I have figured out the English names that were
used in our market for these colors (translated
from the original German version of Christophorus).
But I can't find it at this moment.

I think that the % of PTS is presently about the same,
relative to total Porsche production, although PAG has
admitted to me in private that demand for the option
is rising rapidly, much faster than predicted or anticipated.
I wonder why???? Maybe, just maybe, our PTS threads
here at Rennlist can account for some of that rising interest!



Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale

STG

Trust me, Porsche at the end of the day with all the hassle, the PTS cost is not a money maker for Porsche. Merely a customization option to please it's discerning buyers.

Like mentioned, I'm sure many at PAG would rather not deal with it. For whatever reason, it seems to be a not so easy thing to execute.

Maybe in the future they'll find a way to streamline it, but my guess is that they want to intentionally keep it exclusive and limited to maintain the mystique.

Benedict14

Eduardo,

I appreciate your knowledge and passion. However; the spelling police live by the sword, and die by the sword. Unless you meant "nuzzle" of course .......

Z356

I am a terrible writer & speller. I always get my past tenses
mixed up. My wife doesn't think I have a good command of
the English language...and tells me so regularly. I came to
Rennlist to learn from expert communicators...like Mooty.
So I am trying to improve with every post I write. Thank
you for bringing my attention to the correct spelling of
nozzles.

I was attempting a little fun with Jerry re: Manheim. That is
why 'The Evil Grin' next to my comment. We in the Porsche
world tend to identify with Teutonic names. So often when
we hear of this auction house which was named after a borough
in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, we think of Mannheim, a
city in Baden-Württemberg not that far from Stuttgart. I also
used to spell the auction company just as Jerry did. It's often
hard for everyone reading a thread to understand a writer's
often less-than-perfect attempt at humor. I can assure you
that I am not officially with the 'Spelling Police' at Rennlist.
And I take it, neither are you. Correct?

Eduardo
Scottsdale

shake-em-on-down

I have just ordered a PTS car and, you're right, at £3642 I consider it a steal. It's only £700 more than I'm paying for the Burmester stereo package and less than $5500 (USD).

Jerry991

Eduardo: You make some very interesting points but it only leads me to the conclusion that Porsche owners are fickle and some have deep pockets. Your statement that "no good deed goes unpunished"and that Porsche was doing a favor to buyers by dropping the price on GT Silver leaves me speechless - do you really believe this? The Porsche division is extremely profitable and the board and officers operate it to make a profit and a good return for the shareholders which is exactly what they are supposed to do. I don't see any evidence to support your conclusion that they somehow made a decision because we want to do the buyers a favor. This is purely a marketing decision as is the decision that they can make an extra $3000 per car if they can get the buyers to pay that for some new colors that will cost them no more to use to paint the cars. I am not trying to disparage Porsche rather my point was that with respect to Porsche buyers they are fickle and Porsche will rightfully from a profit point of view, take advantage of that. I am certain that when they make a decision of what to charge for options they determine the cost and then they determine how much they can charge for it. They don't sit there and come to the conclusion that they should throw a bone to the customers and charge less for an option than they can get for it.

Now PTS colors are a somewhat different story but I believe that the premium for those colors in used cars is more dependent upon the car than the color. By that I mean I don't think you could prove that a PTS color on a 2013 911 is going to command a premium of any significance. I really like many PTS colors and if I were buying a used 911 I would certainly put most PTS colors ahead of non-PTS colors but how much of a premium would I or anyone else pay in that circumstance. I saw a new base Macan in a PTS color - do you think it will bring a premium in a few years when the buyer tries to sell it or trade it in at a dealer?
I would concede in a limited production Porsche such as a GT3 RS or GT4, a PTS might command a significant premium but regular cars would not. But try thinking about this from a dealer perspective and not from an emotional owner like we all are. I know dealers that will pay less for some colors like yellow or brown because they are harder to sell because there is a more limited market for them. When a customer comes to a dealer to buy a used Porsche do you think that they will agree to pay a significant premium for GT Silver and even if they will pay extra, how much? The dealer looks at the color and says how quickly can I sell the car and how much will I make in profit and that is why they are in business. In that same area what do you believe his thinking would be with respect to a PTS color? There is an extremely long thread on this board on good buys on 991s and there are definite opinions on what the value is for used cars and rarely has anyone ever mentioned the color as a reason for a premium price while there certainly are colors which have less appeal.

Z356

Yes, I do. We often think that we, the end buyers, are
Porsche's sole customers. But that is in fact not true.
We don't buy anything directly from PAG or PCNA.
Their primary customers are...their dealers. And you
can be certain that the dealers, especially those in the
powerful dealer councils in the United States, have a
big input on some decisions at PAG & PCNA.

If I was a dealer, I would constantly push PAG to offer
a more attractive palette of colors for their cars at a
lower price. For example, 'GT Silver' is a very prestigious
& popular color with dealers. It was first shown in the
prototype 'Carrera GT' at the Paris Auto Show in 2000...



​& then was an exclusive color for the 40th Anniversary
edition of the 911!



http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=178

And ever since it was allowed to be ordered as a 'Special Color' on
regular models, it has been one of the most popular & desirable
colors in their history! So 'GT Silver' at $710 will mean more cars
ordered by customers & dealers in that attractive color. And, it will
also be an easier color to resell in the second hand market once
the car is traded in, etc. And as you know, used cars is one of the
most profitable areas for any Porsche dealer today. So do not think
for a moment that the decision of lowering the price of 'GT Silver'
was not well-thought out by Porsche's marketing, sales & dealers
after much back & forth! There were powerful forces pushing for
it for a very long time!

Same holds true for PAG recently adding a near PTS color called
'Miami Blue' (close to the very popular PTS 'Riviera Blue') as a
'Special Color' selection for the regular 991. That was something
that was strongly lobbied by interested parties, dealers & consumers
alike! And this all means that Porsche, whether you like to believe
it or not, is paying attention to 'input' from outside forces! It's a
great thing...and we have to thank capitalistic market forces for
pushing for these positive changes that ultimately benefit average
consumers like you or me!

But I am the first to admit that US dealers are not always consulted
on colors. The professional color 'fashionistas' hired by Porsche to
select 'in vogue' colors for the new Porsche models often don't care
about what the 'plebeian' masses, or dealers, think. That is why
they imposed their horrific 'Lime Gold Metallic' on all of us at the
beginning of the 991 model.






This color is known as the 'Kiss of Death' gold in Porsche circles...
at least in my household! Mercifully, Porsche killed this color recently
...and buried it at a unique cemetery for odd-color exterior colors
located at Fellbach, not far from Zuffenhausen. It is buried upside
down...just in case it tries to get back out, it will go into deeper soil!





I still don't think I am going to convince you on any of this, Jerry.
But at least give it some thought.



Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale


​

evio

Can anyone tell me when leather to sample will be back on confriguator

Z356

Just talk to someone at 'Porsche Exclusive' in
Atlanta or Beverly Hills if you are interested &
live in North America. It should be available
in 'normal' times. It's an often overlooked
option because so few dealers or customer
order it. But it's very reasonably priced...if
you compare it to the prices of the offered
premium leathers available as regular options!

Rennlister 'mopgcw' successfully ordered Leather
to Sample on his new Cayman. I don't know of
too many others that have done so. So it's worth
a look to read how he went about it:



https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...ts-cayman.html

The important thing to know about LTS is that all
interior plastic trim will come in 'black', unless you
opt to cover it in leather at an extra cost. In the
regular leather offerings for any given year, the
trim color is coordinated to the hue of the leather!

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/7085...and-you-4.html

Attached is an older 2014 list of 'Leather to Sample'
from my files.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale

THPorsche

one could argue about the extra cost of the colored seat belts too but you have to consider the lower order quantity (extra cost) of the color belts vs the regular black one.

Benedict14

Haha 🤓. No, I am not the spelling police, nor are you. It was merely a light hearted joke.

Thank you for your voluminous and knowledgable contributions to Rennlist. Fortunately, I now know exactly how I will apply PTS to a future 911 order. Sometimes knowledge is expensive. I'll post a photo in your honour; if and when the time comes.

Cheers,

B.

jury_ca

I realize PTS is of great interest to many users here. I haven't followed all the threads but my concern is whether some PTS cars would be more challenging to repair / repaint by body shops if an owner ever needed a respray. Does Porsche offer touch-up paint in all the PTS colors?

VanSant62

Hello, I'm new here. Coming from owning Corvettes as well as Harley Davidsons, both companies have a premium for some color choices, others no. Im wondering though, Im picking up a 2011 cab 4s, white a really nice red, almost blood red interior with white sticthing. Is this a rare interior? I havnt seen many.