Would Porsche invite a comparison of the 991.1 GTS to the 991.2S
03-20-2016, 02:03 AM
#1
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Would Porsche invite a comparison of the 991.1 GTS to the 991.2S
I read with interest the recent Panorama review of the new 991.2. Pete Stout gave it a pretty good review and the car looks to be quite capable as evidenced by the base Carrera holding its own against an RS, no less, at their test track. I am surprised to not see any direct comparisons of the new S with the old GTS which arguably is the benchmark for the old generation. Maybe I have missed it somewhere....
Jim
Jim
03-20-2016, 05:26 PM
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Perhaps you might wish to match options/accessories on the S and its cost versus the same options/accessories which are standard on the GTS at lesser cost.
03-20-2016, 08:19 PM
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Chuck-
What is "feel"? I have driven the new 991.2 with the turbo and own a 2015 "old" 991.1 GTS. Yes, the boost of the turbo of the 991.2 cuts in far before the torque of the GTS shows its face but the hp of the 991.2 is 420 and that of the "old" GTS is 430. Yes, the torque band of the 991.2 is wider than the GTS. However, look at the dollars to purchase both cars with similar equipment. The GTS speaks much more clearly for this old man who has purchased new Porsches with a great deal of thought and experience for many years. If you "feel" a new S better than I feel a GTS either you or I must revisit the dealership. However, given I have owned a great many new Porsches in the past 42 years, I think I have the closeness to "feel" and cost. Et tu?
What is "feel"? I have driven the new 991.2 with the turbo and own a 2015 "old" 991.1 GTS. Yes, the boost of the turbo of the 991.2 cuts in far before the torque of the GTS shows its face but the hp of the 991.2 is 420 and that of the "old" GTS is 430. Yes, the torque band of the 991.2 is wider than the GTS. However, look at the dollars to purchase both cars with similar equipment. The GTS speaks much more clearly for this old man who has purchased new Porsches with a great deal of thought and experience for many years. If you "feel" a new S better than I feel a GTS either you or I must revisit the dealership. However, given I have owned a great many new Porsches in the past 42 years, I think I have the closeness to "feel" and cost. Et tu?
03-20-2016, 08:27 PM
#5
03-20-2016, 10:28 PM
#6
Instructor
I think it'll be more about the area under the curve. Look at the specs for the E92 M3 and F80 M3. Similar horsepower but a lot more torque in the new turbo engine. New M3 is much faster. Same story with the M3, it's faster but it just sounds bad.
03-21-2016, 10:59 AM
#7
Drifting
In his 991.2 Turbo review (Man, I'm going to hate having to point out every time I write this that I mean Capital T Turbo, not Carrera turbo 
)...
Anyway, in his 991.2 Turbo review this month Stout opines that his order of "loving the drive" or being entertained by the driving experience with the new 991.2s goes like this:
Carrera base
Carrera S
Turbo/TurboS
Whatever that's worth.
Perhaps with the big dollup of torque the new base car feels as fast as a .1 S, and yet retains a more natural or rewarding "feel" to it, in which case perhaps we may be getting towards the point of "there really is such a thing as enough horsepower/torque."
i.e., if you have to give up something in terms of everyday usable feel, delightful flickability, turn-in, achievable slip angles on the street, etc, in order to get higher ultimate performance, then it's not worth it.
Back in MY2000 when the Boxster S introduced us to the concept of a choice of NA engines in the same model for the first time since 1973 (at least in the US), it was a no-brainer to always pick the larger engine if you could afford it. The 201hp Boxster 2.5 was so underpowered that this was an easy choice. Ditto the 3.8/3.6 dichotomy for the Carrera starting in 2005. Since then it's seemed that the S model was always the best choice absent economic incentive to stay with the base.
But several reviewers seem to be suggesting that may no longer be the case with Carreras. I'll be interested to read whether that becomes a consensus opinion.
)... Anyway, in his 991.2 Turbo review this month Stout opines that his order of "loving the drive" or being entertained by the driving experience with the new 991.2s goes like this:
Carrera base
Carrera S
Turbo/TurboS
Whatever that's worth.
Perhaps with the big dollup of torque the new base car feels as fast as a .1 S, and yet retains a more natural or rewarding "feel" to it, in which case perhaps we may be getting towards the point of "there really is such a thing as enough horsepower/torque."
i.e., if you have to give up something in terms of everyday usable feel, delightful flickability, turn-in, achievable slip angles on the street, etc, in order to get higher ultimate performance, then it's not worth it.
Back in MY2000 when the Boxster S introduced us to the concept of a choice of NA engines in the same model for the first time since 1973 (at least in the US), it was a no-brainer to always pick the larger engine if you could afford it. The 201hp Boxster 2.5 was so underpowered that this was an easy choice. Ditto the 3.8/3.6 dichotomy for the Carrera starting in 2005. Since then it's seemed that the S model was always the best choice absent economic incentive to stay with the base.
But several reviewers seem to be suggesting that may no longer be the case with Carreras. I'll be interested to read whether that becomes a consensus opinion.
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03-22-2016, 01:32 PM
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On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
03-22-2016, 07:25 PM
#10
Race Car
Freeman,
I don't have any miles in a .2 so can't really speak to a performance comparison. I was going by reviewers I trust. Some folks really rave about the rear wheel steering. I will have to road test it and see if it really seems enough of a gain over my S2S to be tempting.
But no matter- I fully agree with you and everyone above re .1 991-50/GTS looks, power delivery, sound, and general persona (especially with SPASM). Porsche nailed it. if I had one like yours the way you built it, it would be a long term keeper for sure. And I know "long term" when one has the right car.
My assessment is based on having enjoyed a '72 914.2.0 (best 100 HP car ever made), a '74S (ok but readily replaced by a '78SC (a 210 hp Porsche "family" engine car I had for 30 years in many road and track configs), a 2008 Boxster RS-60 Spyder (way underrated road and track and still the best PSE in a tunnel) and my current 2012.5 C2S, easily the most enjoyable car I have ever owned.
I don't have any miles in a .2 so can't really speak to a performance comparison. I was going by reviewers I trust. Some folks really rave about the rear wheel steering. I will have to road test it and see if it really seems enough of a gain over my S2S to be tempting.
But no matter- I fully agree with you and everyone above re .1 991-50/GTS looks, power delivery, sound, and general persona (especially with SPASM). Porsche nailed it. if I had one like yours the way you built it, it would be a long term keeper for sure. And I know "long term" when one has the right car.
My assessment is based on having enjoyed a '72 914.2.0 (best 100 HP car ever made), a '74S (ok but readily replaced by a '78SC (a 210 hp Porsche "family" engine car I had for 30 years in many road and track configs), a 2008 Boxster RS-60 Spyder (way underrated road and track and still the best PSE in a tunnel) and my current 2012.5 C2S, easily the most enjoyable car I have ever owned.
03-24-2016, 09:29 PM
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Chuckbdc-
After writing the above on March 20, I drove a 2017 991.2 PDK C4S with rear wheel steering today. I must say, it gave me a different perspective with respect to handling versus my 2015 991.1 MT GTS. Despite this and the higher, flatter torque curve, of the 991.2 and the fact you can get the 991.2 with MT, I am not sure I can part with my MT GTS. I do not think I can exploit the new features with my boring city driving. I do not track it. It boils down to the tired "each to his own". I am happy with what I have as I should be.
After writing the above on March 20, I drove a 2017 991.2 PDK C4S with rear wheel steering today. I must say, it gave me a different perspective with respect to handling versus my 2015 991.1 MT GTS. Despite this and the higher, flatter torque curve, of the 991.2 and the fact you can get the 991.2 with MT, I am not sure I can part with my MT GTS. I do not think I can exploit the new features with my boring city driving. I do not track it. It boils down to the tired "each to his own". I am happy with what I have as I should be.
03-25-2016, 02:27 AM
#12
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As noted in the article, that was a closed public road sometimes used as a rally stage, not a race track. The RS would have dusted the C2 on a track—especially since it had the better driver.
On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
Was more interested in comparing C2 and C2S to their predecessors than getting into the GTS question, as they're not meant to be GTS replacements (even if they will be for a small number of buyers). That said, you raise an interesting question, and one I'd be hard pressed to answer, and even harder pressed to tell someone else what the right call is. Agree that the GTS set the benchmark for the 991-1 save the track-oriented GT3/RS and (possibly?) 911R. The 911_50 and various GTS models are just wonderful, wonderful cars. And that engine.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
Was more interested in comparing C2 and C2S to their predecessors than getting into the GTS question, as they're not meant to be GTS replacements (even if they will be for a small number of buyers). That said, you raise an interesting question, and one I'd be hard pressed to answer, and even harder pressed to tell someone else what the right call is. Agree that the GTS set the benchmark for the 991-1 save the track-oriented GT3/RS and (possibly?) 911R. The 911_50 and various GTS models are just wonderful, wonderful cars. And that engine.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
j
03-25-2016, 07:13 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
03-25-2016, 08:51 PM
#14
03-26-2016, 01:17 AM
#15