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Remember that the gts has the wider wheels already and also the widebody that is 44mm wider than the new S. It will handle better as the wide body is superior in terms of handling. The new car needs RWS just to compete.
I made a correction on the weight. The difference is 30 lbs more than the 991.1. The turbos added 80 lbs but Porsche managed to shave 50 lbs off the car by substituting more steel with aluminum. The GTS non 4 weighs 60 Kgs more than the 991.2 S and is 2 KPH slower top speed. I am not a mechanical engineer and cannot comment on handling but on pure specs of weight and HP, the 991.2 should outperform the GTS, at least on paper.
Would Porsche invite a comparison of the 991.1 GTS to the 991.2S
I believe your figures are off. Just checked and the GTS 2wd manual is 15k lighter than a 991.2 S manual 2wd. They will be very close in straight line performance. Can't wait to see an actual race.
I believe your figures are off. Just checked and the GTS 2wd manual is 15k lighter than a 991.2 S manual 2wd. They will be very close in straight line performance. Can't wait to see an actual race.
I stand corrected. I took the unladen DIN weight of one car and compared the to unladen EG weight of the other. I don't know what those terms mean but it is 75kg difference. I agree that it will be interesting to see the results when the two are confronted side by side on a road course.
As noted in the article, that was a closed public road sometimes used as a rally stage, not a race track. The RS would have dusted the C2 on a track—especially since it had the better driver.
On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
Was more interested in comparing C2 and C2S to their predecessors than getting into the GTS question, as they're not meant to be GTS replacements (even if they will be for a small number of buyers). That said, you raise an interesting question, and one I'd be hard pressed to answer, and even harder pressed to tell someone else what the right call is. Agree that the GTS set the benchmark for the 991-1 save the track-oriented GT3/RS and (possibly?) 911R. The 911_50 and various GTS models are just wonderful, wonderful cars. And that engine.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
Thanks Pete for the insights. As I am in the process of replacing my 2012 Carrera S PDK, I am curious as to your definition of the right equipment for a GTS or 911_50. Weighting this vs a 991.2 Carrera S. Hey, I am even thinking of trying (that'd be first time for me) a 4S!
I stand corrected. I took the unladen DIN weight of one car and compared the to unladen EG weight of the other. I don't know what those terms mean but it is 75kg difference. I agree that it will be interesting to see the results when the two are confronted side by side on a road course.
No problem happens to me on occasion. 991.2 will be a wonderful car for those that are now able to enter the marketplace. As far as I'm concerned the GTS is probably the best 911 next to the R. So as you can tell I'm very happy I own one.
Thanks Pete for the insights. As I am in the process of replacing my 2012 Carrera S PDK, I am curious as to your definition of the right equipment for a GTS or 911_50. Weighting this vs a 991.2 Carrera S. Hey, I am even thinking of trying (that'd be first time for me) a 4S!
Should say the "right equipment" on the 911_50 or GTS for me, which would be Sport PASM, sport seats, no sunroof, and a manual transmission. PCCBs would be nice on the street, but are not required.
As for the 991.2—again for me—I find PDK, EPAS, RWS, turbocharging, etc. plus the general refinement of the 991 impressive, but each adds another layer or filter. The further the 911 has come in the last 10-15 years, the more I find myself prizing the simplest setup. All of them are so fast now that I don't need the extra speed added by AWD or 600 hp. I am no enemy of C4s, but it's yet another element that adds weight, complexity, and filtration—and width, though I do like the looks of those rear fenders—to a generation of 911s that, for me anyway, have maybe walked just over the fine line between sport and everyday utility. Haven't made up my mind on this, but the thought is always there. 996/997 era never had me thinking too much about size, or complexity. 991 era has had me thinking about it, but 991.2 base Carrera is very refreshing that way. Not sure it's a "tangible." Just a feeling I had in Portugal on great and tiny roads, where it felt honest, direct, and alert. The Carrera S with PDK and RWS started feeling like a "big" car again, though it was faster and more planted at the rear. I'm sure it was objectively more agile, but it didn't feel like it, and it didn't feel as honest, if that makes sense?
So in this round of 911s, I seem to like the base Carrera with very few options (Sport Exhaust and maybe 20s). I might feel very differently if I lived in Germany, or somewhere with a lot of snow. There are also buyers who prize having all of the latest gear and tech, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm not one of them. I want a 911 to feel different to everything else out there, and less tech helps in that regard in my experience.
As for making the call between my perfect 911_50 or 991.1 GTS and a new base Carrera set up to my liking, ouch that would be tough without a back to back drive on good roads. But my leaning right now would be 991.2 base Carrera. It was just really, really compelling in its subtle goodness—GT4 good, but in a different way that will be unlikely to yield as many accolades. YMMV!
996/997 era never had me thinking too much about size, or complexity. 991 era has had me thinking about it,
I remember thinking, when I first saw the 996TT, how very big and advanced the 911 had gotten. But over time I adjusted, until in recent years it hasn't seemed large at all, and has seemed very analog and throwback, even with the AWD. And at 450/467, it's not even particularly powerful anymore.
But when I first parked my 991 next to it I was struck by how small the Turbo looks next to the GTS! There is a slab-sidedness to the 991, or that's not the right word -- a beefiness through the flanks, and I mean vertically, not the width of the widebody. Like I said, it makes the 996TT look svelte...
Should say the "right equipment" on the 911_50 or GTS for me, which would be Sport PASM, sport seats, no sunroof, and a manual transmission. PCCBs would be nice on the street, but are not required.
As for the 991.2—again for me—I find PDK, EPAS, RWS, turbocharging, etc. plus the general refinement of the 991 impressive, but each adds another layer or filter. The further the 911 has come in the last 10-15 years, the more I find myself prizing the simplest setup. All of them are so fast now that I don't need the extra speed added by AWD or 600 hp. I am no enemy of C4s, but it's yet another element that adds weight, complexity, and filtration—and width, though I do like the looks of those rear fenders—to a generation of 911s that, for me anyway, have maybe walked just over the fine line between sport and everyday utility. Haven't made up my mind on this, but the thought is always there. 996/997 era never had me thinking too much about size, or complexity. 991 era has had me thinking about it, but 991.2 base Carrera is very refreshing that way. Not sure it's a "tangible." Just a feeling I had in Portugal on great and tiny roads, where it felt honest, direct, and alert. The Carrera S with PDK and RWS started feeling like a "big" car again, though it was faster and more planted at the rear. I'm sure it was objectively more agile, but it didn't feel like it, and it didn't feel as honest, if that makes sense?
So in this round of 911s, I seem to like the base Carrera with very few options (Sport Exhaust and maybe 20s). I might feel very differently if I lived in Germany, or somewhere with a lot of snow. There are also buyers who prize having all of the latest gear and tech, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm not one of them. I want a 911 to feel different to everything else out there, and less tech helps in that regard in my experience.
As for making the call between my perfect 911_50 or 991.1 GTS and a new base Carrera set up to my liking, ouch that would be tough without a back to back drive on good roads. But my leaning right now would be 991.2 base Carrera. It was just really, really compelling in its subtle goodness—GT4 good, but in a different way that will be unlikely to yield as many accolades. YMMV!
Thanks, appreciate the response! Yes, I love my PDK, but I am leaning towards going back to a manual...I miss it too much. I am also thinking of the GTS, would have to test the new 991.2 to make a final decision.
I remember thinking, when I first saw the 996TT, how very big and advanced the 911 had gotten. But over time I adjusted, until in recent years it hasn't seemed large at all, and has seemed very analog and throwback, even with the AWD. And at 450/467, it's not even particularly powerful anymore.
But when I first parked my 991 next to it I was struck by how small the Turbo looks next to the GTS! There is a slab-sidedness to the 991, or that's not the right word -- a beefiness through the flanks, and I mean vertically, not the width of the widebody. Like I said, it makes the 996TT look svelte...
Good points, and what I'm sensing too.
I remember being blown away by the 996 Turbo when it was new—it was a quantum leap over its predecessors yet very involving and satisfying to drive. It's been a while since I've driven a 996 Turbo, but a recent drive in a 996 C4S reminded me how cool that era was—the 996 was the first 911 with clean sheet chassis since the 901's introduction but arrived just before the advent of the "electronic" 911 era ushered in by the 997.
The 991 is too big outside for me, but many of its forms, shut lines, and details are masterful. I wonder if the lower greenhouse, beautiful as it is, has changed the proportions too much and removed some 911-ness. It doesn't say "911" to me quite as much as older greenhouses did. Not a lot of daylight when it comes to its openings. Or maybe it's the added thickness just above the side windows—the rooftop and its rails look heftier than before, over less airy windows.
Of course, calling a 991 anything other than beautiful is hard to do, and I think it's a cleaner, more refined design than the 996 and 997. Sometimes I think the 996 Turbo isn't aging well, but your 996 Turbo has me thinking otherwise. It is plain stunning in that front 3/4 driveway shot, and the 3/4 rear shot. It's like thinking maybe I don't like impact-bumper 911s, after all, and then being reminded just how great they can look when the right one goes by. Same goes for the 964 and 993. And 356B and C, for that matter.
Thanks, appreciate the response! Yes, I love my PDK, but I am leaning towards going back to a manual...I miss it too much. I am also thinking of the GTS, would have to test the new 991.2 to make a final decision.
If you're on the fence, my vote is manual. It's worth it on its own merits, especially with the new linkage, but I feel it also becomes more valuable to offset the loss in directness with the turbo engine—though you will be surprised by how well Porsche masked the forced induction in this 911!
03-27-2016, 01:56 PM
