991.2 "undisguised"
07-30-2015, 12:50 PM
#361
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Such an angry group the turbo crowd is. But whatever you want, it's your money. I'll do the same.
There are so many NA cars I'd like to have at some point, that I'll keep myself busy until I can't drive anymore. Hopefully the gov't doesn't start confiscating them in 20-30yrs! Hopefully "grandfather clause" still exists.
Lighten up buddy!
There are so many NA cars I'd like to have at some point, that I'll keep myself busy until I can't drive anymore. Hopefully the gov't doesn't start confiscating them in 20-30yrs! Hopefully "grandfather clause" still exists.
Lighten up buddy!
07-30-2015, 03:41 PM
#362
Rennlist Member
Such an angry group the turbo crowd is. But whatever you want, it's your money. I'll do the same.
There are so many NA cars I'd like to have at some point, that I'll keep myself busy until I can't drive anymore. Hopefully the gov't doesn't start confiscating them in 20-30yrs! Hopefully "grandfather clause" still exists.
Lighten up buddy!
There are so many NA cars I'd like to have at some point, that I'll keep myself busy until I can't drive anymore. Hopefully the gov't doesn't start confiscating them in 20-30yrs! Hopefully "grandfather clause" still exists.
Lighten up buddy!
Anyway, that's their own problem. But he does have a point on that some glaringly false information have been spread around on this thread.
07-30-2015, 04:19 PM
#364
Nordschleife Master
07-30-2015, 05:10 PM
#365
Race Director
991.2 "undisguised"
The great thing is that I've posted such great articles referencing a lot of great information unlike the critics.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Obviously I'm not a fan of turbos, and trying to highlight the reasons why car manufacturers have gone in that direction. Obviously we all know why, and not 100% by their choice.
I think NA engines have a soul, sound, and driving experience that many enthusiasts love. Is there something wrong with that? The Porsche 911 has been NA over 50 years but now has been maxed out with HP and torque with no where else to find more say the critics. They've managed to increase both with each generation so far haven't they?
The critics have come out of the woodwork with Saul Alinsky tactics. That's fine and dandy. Say all you want, I'll debate the facts and clear up the true misconceptions. It actually gives me more motivation. I'm even on vacation, and not resting as much as I should be.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Obviously I'm not a fan of turbos, and trying to highlight the reasons why car manufacturers have gone in that direction. Obviously we all know why, and not 100% by their choice.
I think NA engines have a soul, sound, and driving experience that many enthusiasts love. Is there something wrong with that? The Porsche 911 has been NA over 50 years but now has been maxed out with HP and torque with no where else to find more say the critics. They've managed to increase both with each generation so far haven't they?
The critics have come out of the woodwork with Saul Alinsky tactics. That's fine and dandy. Say all you want, I'll debate the facts and clear up the true misconceptions. It actually gives me more motivation. I'm even on vacation, and not resting as much as I should be.
Last edited by STG; 07-30-2015 at 05:29 PM.
07-30-2015, 05:32 PM
#366
Rennlist Member
The great thing is that I've posted such great articles referencing a lot of great information unlike the critics.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Obviously I'm not a fan of turbos, and trying to highlight the reasons why car manufacturers have gone in that direction. Obviously we all know why, and not 100% by their choice.
I think NA engines have a soul, sound, and driving experience that many enthusiasts love. Is there something wrong with that? The Porsche 911 has been NA over 50 years but now has been maxed out with HP and torque with no where else to find more say the critics. They've managed to increase both with each generation so far haven't they?
The critics have come out of the woodwork with Saul Alinsky tactics. That's fine and dandy. Say all you want, I'll debate the facts and clear up the true misconceptions. It actually gives me more motivation. I'm even on vacation, and not resting as much as I should be.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
Obviously I'm not a fan of turbos, and trying to highlight the reasons why car manufacturers have gone in that direction. Obviously we all know why, and not 100% by their choice.
I think NA engines have a soul, sound, and driving experience that many enthusiasts love. Is there something wrong with that? The Porsche 911 has been NA over 50 years but now has been maxed out with HP and torque with no where else to find more say the critics. They've managed to increase both with each generation so far haven't they?
The critics have come out of the woodwork with Saul Alinsky tactics. That's fine and dandy. Say all you want, I'll debate the facts and clear up the true misconceptions. It actually gives me more motivation. I'm even on vacation, and not resting as much as I should be.
If you have little to no understanding of how modern DFI turbo engine works, I would sincerely ask you to stop posting. I love debating things based on facts, but not when they are fueled by ignorance, which is the case here.
07-30-2015, 05:38 PM
#367
Race Director
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by cloud9blue
Seriously. How many times do people need to tell you that article has gotten a lot of the facts wrong...
If you have little to no understanding of how modern DFI turbo engine works, I would sincerely ask you to stop posting. I love debating things based on facts, but not when they are fueled by ignorance, which is the case here.
If you have little to no understanding of how modern DFI turbo engine works, I would sincerely ask you to stop posting. I love debating things based on facts, but not when they are fueled by ignorance, which is the case here.
07-30-2015, 05:45 PM
#368
Rennlist Member
The great thing is that I've posted such great articles referencing a lot of great information unlike the critics. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/ Obviously I'm not a fan of turbos, and trying to highlight the reasons why car manufacturers have gone in that direction. Obviously we all know why, and not 100% by their choice. I think NA engines have a soul, sound, and driving experience that many enthusiasts love. Is there something wrong with that? The Porsche 911 has been NA over 50 years but now has been maxed out with HP and torque with no where else to find more say the critics. They've managed to increase both with each generation so far haven't they? The critics have come out of the woodwork with Saul Alinsky tactics. That's fine and dandy. Say all you want, I'll debate the facts and clear up the true misconceptions. It actually gives me more motivation. I'm even on vacation, and not resting as much as I should be.
07-30-2015, 05:48 PM
#369
Rennlist Member
Great! Argumentum ad hominem again! I have Seen plenty of fools like you on bimmer and beemer forums over the year, was expecting Porsche forums would be more mature than this. Guess I am wrong.
So let me ask you, did you even bother to read and comprehend the posts made by me and various other "turbo lovers" about why your article is wrong?
And here is a video of my car by the way, and please tell me again that is a soccer dad vehicle (Soccer dad, really? I am 26 and not even married...). Seriously, I would expect this level of immaturity and fanboyism from a video gaming forum full of teenagers, but not here.
https://youtu.be/rvQeQ4vweBw
Oh and here is another one with me lapping various cars, including a NA 991 C4S.
https://youtu.be/ivOzAELQIhU
Seriously, how empty your life must be for you to spread false information on every thread about turbocharging in order to make yourself feel better?
Last edited by cloud9blue; 07-30-2015 at 06:46 PM.
07-30-2015, 05:57 PM
#371
Race Director
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by Cheekymonkeyman
Stg991... I'm personally waiting to see how the FI turns out BUT (and it's a big MF C4 butt 'cos I like them and I can not lie) I respect opinion, passion and contribution. You have that in spades. 4cam turns up out of the 996/7 shadows and throws an unfounded insult without so much as an informed debate... Get some rest... Enjoy your vacation... And don't let the minority wind you up! (P.s. 997 turbo blew me out today - good fun trip but wow - fast!)
Chat later. Hitting up the pool!
07-30-2015, 07:16 PM
#373
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07-30-2015, 07:38 PM
#374
yow.
STG, you obviously enjoy your NA. Hope you continue to do so. As I have said multiple times, they feel different, and that's a completely valid reason for liking one over the other.
However, can we all agree that if we're debating opinions all opinions are valid, but if we're debating fact (science), it isn't fair to keep posting an *INCORRECT* article again and again and again when multiple people have tried to explain to you why it's wrong? That idiot at R&T doesn't know what he's talking about. And, if you read the comments on the article itself, you'll see plenty of commentary about it. I have posted links about the subject too. Please take the time to read them if you want to really know the difference. I'll sum it up for you, for the last time: A well-implemented FI (Turbo or Supercharged) is *always* more efficient than a well-implemented equivalent NA engine, but the gap shrinks when you are hard on the gas. When you are chugging along at a steady speed, the gap is much greater.
And now, I hope you're enjoying your break
Please enjoy the pool.
And... I'm out of this thread. I've said all I had to; if you insist on believing a bollocks article and ignoring the contradictory facts, I don't see how I can change your mind. BTW, I'm very disappointed in your ad hominem attacks on cloud9blue, who has been nothing but civil to you all this time. Given how helpful you've been in so many other threads, I was somewhat surprised and saddened by that.
STG, you obviously enjoy your NA. Hope you continue to do so. As I have said multiple times, they feel different, and that's a completely valid reason for liking one over the other.
However, can we all agree that if we're debating opinions all opinions are valid, but if we're debating fact (science), it isn't fair to keep posting an *INCORRECT* article again and again and again when multiple people have tried to explain to you why it's wrong? That idiot at R&T doesn't know what he's talking about. And, if you read the comments on the article itself, you'll see plenty of commentary about it. I have posted links about the subject too. Please take the time to read them if you want to really know the difference. I'll sum it up for you, for the last time: A well-implemented FI (Turbo or Supercharged) is *always* more efficient than a well-implemented equivalent NA engine, but the gap shrinks when you are hard on the gas. When you are chugging along at a steady speed, the gap is much greater.
And now, I hope you're enjoying your break
Please enjoy the pool.And... I'm out of this thread. I've said all I had to; if you insist on believing a bollocks article and ignoring the contradictory facts, I don't see how I can change your mind. BTW, I'm very disappointed in your ad hominem attacks on cloud9blue, who has been nothing but civil to you all this time. Given how helpful you've been in so many other threads, I was somewhat surprised and saddened by that.
07-30-2015, 08:19 PM
#375
For me personally, I'm not inclined to turbo for economy reasons, because I almost never drive relaxed, so my mileage is gonna suck on basically any powerful car I own. I would be fine with Turbo if it gave me a better driving experience than NA, but I'm not convinced it does at this point and I'm not alone in that thinking. When and if I'm convinced, I'd then not care NA vs. Turbo. But from a market perspective, I think few enthusiasts like the move to turbos and kinda feel like it's being shoved down their throats for regulatory reasons. Which, again, is an entirely different debate. But if you think these cars are efficient when driven hard, jump over to the F80bimmerpost gas mileage threads and see all the guys who drive their cars hard getting 13-16 mpg. The guys getting 20-23 are the guys doing a lot of highway/relaxed driving.
On a related topic, I was at the dealer having PSE installed on my C2S today and they had a really nice Macan S, twin turbo, nicely optioned, good power and only $66k. Combined fuel rating was only 19 though. If the wife ever wants a new vehicle, I'd certainly check that out. Anyone notice the combined rating on the Panamera hybrid was 51mpg when run mixed gas/electric? And it's 25mpg on gas only. How does it do that well?