991.2 "undisguised"
#286
That is so far from the truth. But you guys are free to believe whatever you want. And honestly, how many of the NA die hard fans have driven any modern turbo engines on a proper road course to truly explore what the technology is capable of?
How about we just wait the models to be released and hear from the few open minded owners and reviewers that have experienced both the NA and newer turbo engines instead??? Factless speculations are totally pointless just FYI.
How about we just wait the models to be released and hear from the few open minded owners and reviewers that have experienced both the NA and newer turbo engines instead??? Factless speculations are totally pointless just FYI.
I track my cars a lot and have tracked both NA and TT cars from a variety of manufacturers.
My personal take... a NA engine with sufficient power is my preferred choice on the track. That doesn't mean a TT is not great in that venue... it is. My current car is an M4 and BMW has done a great job of managing lag and power delivery but I still feel that the NA car is better and especially so on tight tracks with slower corners. I do prefer the M4 over the non-TT M3 on the track because it is the better overall car.
Having said that, on the street, a TT is effortless and instantly powerful. There is some advantage for street driving if power is your thing. A high powered, high revving NA engine (like the GTS) still has loads and loads of usable every day power too (more than anyone needs on the street to blast around) but it is more accessible in a TT if someone prefers that feeling.
My M4 is faster than my NA M3 and I prefer it on the track but that is somewhat because the car as a whole is better. The risk for Porsche, I think, is having a new engine but no changes to the chassis. Therefore, it is a pure TT vs. NA comparison. If they waited and added the TT in the next generation car with a better chassis, brakes, weight, etc, then you would hear fewer people having concerns once they drove it as the overall experience might be better notwithstanding the engine.
I do believe Porsche will get the TT right and it will be linear and very torquey and the reviews will reflect that. However, one area that Porsche will not be able to replicate is the sound and, for many, that is a BIG part of the experience and enjoyment of a car.
#287
I do believe Porsche will get the TT right and it will be linear and very torquey and the reviews will reflect that. However, one area that Porsche will not be able to replicate is the sound and, for many, that is a BIG part of the experience and enjoyment of a car.[/QUOTE]
I too will wait because I don't think with this much of a change in the 911 that Porsche will do this half assed. I am of the belief that all the other important incidentals will be taken care of.
Also it was not that long ago before PSE that the NA cars did not have much bite sound wise also. I had the pleasure of owning 4 previous Porsche TT's and had Europipe exhausts on 3 of them. Sound was amazing. So there are fixes for the things that matter but don't really make the car run better, in the end it's just noise.
It will be interesting to see what the new car can do. Way to much hand wringing and in fighting going on for a car that will be here in a few months. If it isn't a wonderful car we all get to keep an already wonderful car. And if it is really great, possibly groundbreaking then we can sneak to the dealers under the cloak of darkness to drive one.
I too will wait because I don't think with this much of a change in the 911 that Porsche will do this half assed. I am of the belief that all the other important incidentals will be taken care of.
Also it was not that long ago before PSE that the NA cars did not have much bite sound wise also. I had the pleasure of owning 4 previous Porsche TT's and had Europipe exhausts on 3 of them. Sound was amazing. So there are fixes for the things that matter but don't really make the car run better, in the end it's just noise.
It will be interesting to see what the new car can do. Way to much hand wringing and in fighting going on for a car that will be here in a few months. If it isn't a wonderful car we all get to keep an already wonderful car. And if it is really great, possibly groundbreaking then we can sneak to the dealers under the cloak of darkness to drive one.
#288
Dude, chill. For the last time, the article you posted is wrong on the science.. You are welcome to prefer NA over Turbo, but to say that FI injected engines are not more efficient in the real world is baloney. You may not care about that, and that's fine. Enjoy your NA!
As regards the M4/RS5 comparison, they're basically a wash, near identical times and mileage. The only difference in times is due to weight differences, both overall and distribution. And btw, the 26 mpg highway you quoted for the M4 is for the manual; I was comparing DCT/DCT. The BMW only gets 24 mpg highway in DCT form, which is the correct comparison to an RS5, which only comes in DCT. And in the real world, an M4 owner will tell you they get **** mileage just like an RS5, nowhere near the ratings (in fact I think an M4 owner posted as much in the other thread).
In the real world, in a sporty car with lots of power, the turbo isn't going to provide much of any advantage. It's a regulatory play plain and simple. I'm fairly confident that Porsche has got it right and the cars will be awesome, but the would have been just the same in NA form, but for the regulators forcing the hand of the manufacturers.
#289
So what do people think the U.S. Mpg stats will be for the 991.2 engines?
I'd be surprised if the "on paper" numbers went up by more than one. I'd also like to see a "flat out" track mpg comparison just for fun. And of course a real world highway comparison. Lots of folks exceeding 30mpg on long road trips in the 991.1 engines, some by a big margin. We'll see if the miracle puppy saving turbos can top what the current NAs already do.
I'd be surprised if the "on paper" numbers went up by more than one. I'd also like to see a "flat out" track mpg comparison just for fun. And of course a real world highway comparison. Lots of folks exceeding 30mpg on long road trips in the 991.1 engines, some by a big margin. We'll see if the miracle puppy saving turbos can top what the current NAs already do.
#290
That is so far from the truth. But you guys are free to believe whatever you want. And honestly, how many of the NA die hard fans have driven any modern turbo engines on a proper road course to truly explore what the technology is capable of?
How about we just wait the models to be released and hear from the few open minded owners and reviewers that have experienced both the NA and newer turbo engines instead??? Factless speculations are totally pointless just FYI.
How about we just wait the models to be released and hear from the few open minded owners and reviewers that have experienced both the NA and newer turbo engines instead??? Factless speculations are totally pointless just FYI.
Sure the Turbos might be a bit faster, get a few more mpg, have more torque, etc; the same would have been the case for the entire history of the 911 yet Porsche didn't do it until governments forced their hand.
#291
On the other stuff, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. It will make a difference for anyone who DDs their car. Perhaps not noticeably for you if you are pedal to the metal all the time - but for anyone who spends enough time on the freeway, it will.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1091942
#292
991.2 "undisguised"
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...wer-arms-race/
And will the next 911 GT3 go turbocharged?
Andreas Preuninger :
Doesn't look like it. While the 911 family as a whole will turn to turbo power, Preuninger reiterated that GT3 versions would stick with natural aspiration.
"I like atmospherical engines, because they are more linear, better driveability, lighter, more emotional", he says.
But what does he know??? ^^^^ must not be aware of the secrets held within.....
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...he-911-gt-cars
And will the next 911 GT3 go turbocharged?
Andreas Preuninger :
Doesn't look like it. While the 911 family as a whole will turn to turbo power, Preuninger reiterated that GT3 versions would stick with natural aspiration.
"I like atmospherical engines, because they are more linear, better driveability, lighter, more emotional", he says.
But what does he know??? ^^^^ must not be aware of the secrets held within.....
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...he-911-gt-cars
Last edited by STG; 07-26-2015 at 09:17 PM.
#293
I have
I track my cars a lot and have tracked both NA and TT cars from a variety of manufacturers.
My personal take... a NA engine with sufficient power is my preferred choice on the track. That doesn't mean a TT is not great in that venue... it is. My current car is an M4 and BMW has done a great job of managing lag and power delivery but I still feel that the NA car is better and especially so on tight tracks with slower corners. I do prefer the M4 over the non-TT M3 on the track because it is the better overall car.
Having said that, on the street, a TT is effortless and instantly powerful. There is some advantage for street driving if power is your thing. A high powered, high revving NA engine (like the GTS) still has loads and loads of usable every day power too (more than anyone needs on the street to blast around) but it is more accessible in a TT if someone prefers that feeling.
My M4 is faster than my NA M3 and I prefer it on the track but that is somewhat because the car as a whole is better. The risk for Porsche, I think, is having a new engine but no changes to the chassis. Therefore, it is a pure TT vs. NA comparison. If they waited and added the TT in the next generation car with a better chassis, brakes, weight, etc, then you would hear fewer people having concerns once they drove it as the overall experience might be better notwithstanding the engine.
I do believe Porsche will get the TT right and it will be linear and very torquey and the reviews will reflect that. However, one area that Porsche will not be able to replicate is the sound and, for many, that is a BIG part of the experience and enjoyment of a car.
I track my cars a lot and have tracked both NA and TT cars from a variety of manufacturers.
My personal take... a NA engine with sufficient power is my preferred choice on the track. That doesn't mean a TT is not great in that venue... it is. My current car is an M4 and BMW has done a great job of managing lag and power delivery but I still feel that the NA car is better and especially so on tight tracks with slower corners. I do prefer the M4 over the non-TT M3 on the track because it is the better overall car.
Having said that, on the street, a TT is effortless and instantly powerful. There is some advantage for street driving if power is your thing. A high powered, high revving NA engine (like the GTS) still has loads and loads of usable every day power too (more than anyone needs on the street to blast around) but it is more accessible in a TT if someone prefers that feeling.
My M4 is faster than my NA M3 and I prefer it on the track but that is somewhat because the car as a whole is better. The risk for Porsche, I think, is having a new engine but no changes to the chassis. Therefore, it is a pure TT vs. NA comparison. If they waited and added the TT in the next generation car with a better chassis, brakes, weight, etc, then you would hear fewer people having concerns once they drove it as the overall experience might be better notwithstanding the engine.
I do believe Porsche will get the TT right and it will be linear and very torquey and the reviews will reflect that. However, one area that Porsche will not be able to replicate is the sound and, for many, that is a BIG part of the experience and enjoyment of a car.
Btw, I know this is entirely a personal opinion, but I really think the exhaust noise of the S65 from the last gen M3 was overrated, at least with the stock exhaust system. The new M4 actually sounds incredibly good with the optional M Performance Exhaust. If BMW can get their exhaust sound right, I am sure Porsche will as well. Hell, I just recently helped my old lady to take delivery of a Macan Turbo, even that thing sounds pretty decent despite being a V6 stuck in a SUV chassis.
#294
#295
#296
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by cloud9blue
The truth is, it might not be enough considering my 6 year old BMW is already pushing more than that at the wheels. As you might understand, it will be difficult decision for me to upgrade if the new car is not much faster than my current one.
You want horsepower, buy a Vette. Think you're making a difference, buy a Prius. Want something to drive to the country club, buy a BMW. Want to live the dream, buy a 911.
#297
Given that I plan to use the car as a daily driver as well, a bit more "oomph" that comes along with the gas pedal is pretty attractive to me, since the "real Turbos" are bit beyond my price range and the fact that I much prefer the RWD in the Carrera models.
#298
991.2 "undisguised"
Originally Posted by cloud9blue
Of course, but there are only two ways to enjoy a proper sports car at where I live, at the local race tracks and on the highway on-ramps here at Chicago, considering we don't have the nice winding roads like the west coast guys are blessed with and I swear to god that there are developing countries out there with much nicer road surface than what I see at some of the local streets here.
Given that I plan to use the car as a daily driver as well, a bit more "oomph" that comes along with the gas pedal is pretty attractive to me, since the "real Turbos" are bit beyond my price range and the fact that I much prefer the RWD in the Carrera models.
Given that I plan to use the car as a daily driver as well, a bit more "oomph" that comes along with the gas pedal is pretty attractive to me, since the "real Turbos" are bit beyond my price range and the fact that I much prefer the RWD in the Carrera models.
My friend, check out the "hot for sale pick of the week" thread. You can get an amazing 991 C2S with less than 5K miles for 20-30K off sticker. Find a nice CPO 2012.5 or 2013.
You won't want to buy the first year of the 991.2 if at all. That means you're 3+ years away minimum of finding a used 991.2 for any decent price.
I don't want to argue with you for the next 3 years. I'll find you a 991.1 in no time.
#299
Chicago roads SUCK. Especially in the city. No enjoyable driving there with the traffic. A sports car needs room to breath.
My friend, check out the "hot for sale pick of the week" thread. You can get an amazing 991 C2S with less than 5K miles for 20-30K off sticker. Find a nice CPO 2012.5 or 2013.
You won't want to buy the first year of the 991.2 if at all. That means you're 3 years away minimum of finding a used 991.2 for any decent price.
My friend, check out the "hot for sale pick of the week" thread. You can get an amazing 991 C2S with less than 5K miles for 20-30K off sticker. Find a nice CPO 2012.5 or 2013.
You won't want to buy the first year of the 991.2 if at all. That means you're 3 years away minimum of finding a used 991.2 for any decent price.
If they are any good, I am ok with buying new and do a custom order since I plan on being a long term owner with the car (that's why I have been lurking on these forums for the past year or so to catch any reliability issue with these cars, so avoid another IMS like issue down the line). And if the 991.2 are crap indeed (whether because of the feel or reliability issue), I am sure I will be able to find a used 991.1 C2S/GTS or even a 991.1 Turbo S for a decent price by then as well.
#300
...A Carrera 2S with PDK is approaching 3200-3300lbs if the car is heavy on options (PDK, glass sunroof). 400-420hp NA might be more than enough just a few years ago, is no longer so with the added weight. I am not alone to think that it would be great that Porsche could keep the 911 at the 993 size and weight (at sub 3000lbs for the RWD coupe models),
964 was the last 911 under 3000 pounds, and it just barely. And that was a long, long time ago, my friend.
http://www.excellence-mag.com/resour...2#.VbWEVZK9KSN