Over Revs with PDK
01-20-2015, 02:19 AM
#47
[QUOTE=chuck911;11963250]wanderfalke, where'd you get the idea that range 1/2 ignitions would invalidate coverage? They don't care at all about 1 & 2, and even 3 & 4 are merely "potentially problematic" which is a whole different meaning than "voiding". The 911Virgin article with the answer has been linked here several times. Here, I'll run it again:
I was responding to the idea that the PDK does not allow for some range of over revs. I have seen the tach. bounce for just a moment 200 to 400 over redline. I suppose the tach could be off, but that does not seem likely.
I was responding to the idea that the PDK does not allow for some range of over revs. I have seen the tach. bounce for just a moment 200 to 400 over redline. I suppose the tach could be off, but that does not seem likely.
01-20-2015, 04:41 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
No money shifts with PDK. Over shifts 1/2 can occur with PDK-S. The PDK-S has no "kick down" feature and only shares a few parts with the standard PDK. A true manual.
With the standard box which is the same in the turbo and base cars will not allow over revs that could damage the engine. The second clutch in the trans lets go when the box senses zero load well before redline.
With the standard box which is the same in the turbo and base cars will not allow over revs that could damage the engine. The second clutch in the trans lets go when the box senses zero load well before redline.
01-20-2015, 05:01 PM
#49
No money shifts with PDK. Over shifts 1/2 can occur with PDK-S. The PDK-S has no "kick down" feature and only shares a few parts with the standard PDK. A true manual.
With the standard box which is the same in the turbo and base cars will not allow over revs that could damage the engine. The second clutch in the trans lets go when the box senses zero load well before redline.
With the standard box which is the same in the turbo and base cars will not allow over revs that could damage the engine. The second clutch in the trans lets go when the box senses zero load well before redline.
01-21-2015, 01:22 AM
#50
Try this, find a empty road with the car warmed up, push the throttle to floor and hold it there in sport mode. My pdk does not let go well before it hits redline in fact it bounces briefly in the red.
01-21-2015, 01:53 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Lol.
I do an awful job trying to describe what a German engineer attempted to explain to me in broken German no doubt. He actually laughed at me when I asked him the question but he has known me a long time and knew I was serious.
Truth be told, many of the Porsche engineers laugh at us when we try to answer technical questions about the cars. They do read Rennlist and 6sp. One even told me they have a drinking game that they play but wouldn't tell me what word is the trigger.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
I do an awful job trying to describe what a German engineer attempted to explain to me in broken German no doubt. He actually laughed at me when I asked him the question but he has known me a long time and knew I was serious.
Truth be told, many of the Porsche engineers laugh at us when we try to answer technical questions about the cars. They do read Rennlist and 6sp. One even told me they have a drinking game that they play but wouldn't tell me what word is the trigger.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
01-21-2015, 02:06 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
Sorry StudGarden.
I didn't ask him anything about redline, etc.
And sorry about the wording. When I said "let go" I didn't mean the trans breaks or fails. He has worked for Porsche for many years. His first project was the engine production for the Mercedes 500e.
Lost in translation is no joke. He basically told me we can't damage our cars with the PDK box. He lost me when I asked if the car logs over revs and categories.
I didn't ask him anything about redline, etc.
And sorry about the wording. When I said "let go" I didn't mean the trans breaks or fails. He has worked for Porsche for many years. His first project was the engine production for the Mercedes 500e.
Lost in translation is no joke. He basically told me we can't damage our cars with the PDK box. He lost me when I asked if the car logs over revs and categories.
01-21-2015, 03:08 AM
#54
Lol.
I do an awful job trying to describe what a German engineer attempted to explain to me in broken German no doubt. He actually laughed at me when I asked him the question but he has known me a long time and knew I was serious.
Truth be told, many of the Porsche engineers laugh at us when we try to answer technical questions about the cars. They do read Rennlist and 6sp. One even told me they have a drinking game that they play but wouldn't tell me what word is the trigger.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
I do an awful job trying to describe what a German engineer attempted to explain to me in broken German no doubt. He actually laughed at me when I asked him the question but he has known me a long time and knew I was serious.
Truth be told, many of the Porsche engineers laugh at us when we try to answer technical questions about the cars. They do read Rennlist and 6sp. One even told me they have a drinking game that they play but wouldn't tell me what word is the trigger.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
01-21-2015, 10:44 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Truth be told, many of the Porsche engineers laugh at us when we try to answer technical questions about the cars. They do read Rennlist and 6sp. One even told me they have a drinking game that they play but wouldn't tell me what word is the trigger.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
For what it's worth he told me we cannot damage the transmission driving a PDK car. That's it.
Seriously, in general, I suppose there is a cultural component to engineering. The germans make it an art form while in the U.S. it is more utilitarian. An example that immediately comes to mind is the WWII german Lugar/Walther which had something like 38 separate parts just in its trigger assembly alone while the U.S. .45 had approximately 14. The Lugar - beautiful but finicky, the .45 ugly and more reliable. (And yes I know that the Lugar was sourced by different manufacturers.). Anyway, I don't mean to disparage german engineering, it is outstanding. But for an engineer to have the hubris to say that you can't break something, particularly something as complicated as a DFI engine is hard to believe - indeed something may have been lost in translation. (This is like a scientist, one of my brethren, assuring us that Global Warming is upon us - what every scientist is taught (before grant money and the pressure to publish may influence us), and policy makers can't or won't consider, is that we don't deal in absolutes. Nature is a fickle B-$-&-C-H. There ya' go Chuck, that's your lead-in!)
01-21-2015, 02:23 PM
#56
Ahh, Chuck, still dubious about Porsche engineers playing a joke on us with over-revs and red line?
Seriously, in general, I suppose there is a cultural component to engineering. The germans make it an art form while in the U.S. it is more utilitarian. An example that immediately comes to mind is the WWII german Lugar/Walther which had something like 38 separate parts just in its trigger assembly alone while the U.S. .45 had approximately 14. The Lugar - beautiful but finicky, the .45 ugly and more reliable. (And yes I know that the Lugar was sourced by different manufacturers.). Anyway, I don't mean to disparage german engineering, it is outstanding. But for an engineer to have the hubris to say that you can't break something, particularly something as complicated as a DFI engine is hard to believe - indeed something may have been lost in translation. (This is like a scientist, one of my brethren, assuring us that Global Warming is upon us - what every scientist is taught (before grant money and the pressure to publish may influence us), and policy makers can't or won't consider, is that we don't deal in absolutes. Nature is a fickle B-$-&-C-H. There ya' go Chuck, that's your lead-in!)
Seriously, in general, I suppose there is a cultural component to engineering. The germans make it an art form while in the U.S. it is more utilitarian. An example that immediately comes to mind is the WWII german Lugar/Walther which had something like 38 separate parts just in its trigger assembly alone while the U.S. .45 had approximately 14. The Lugar - beautiful but finicky, the .45 ugly and more reliable. (And yes I know that the Lugar was sourced by different manufacturers.). Anyway, I don't mean to disparage german engineering, it is outstanding. But for an engineer to have the hubris to say that you can't break something, particularly something as complicated as a DFI engine is hard to believe - indeed something may have been lost in translation. (This is like a scientist, one of my brethren, assuring us that Global Warming is upon us - what every scientist is taught (before grant money and the pressure to publish may influence us), and policy makers can't or won't consider, is that we don't deal in absolutes. Nature is a fickle B-$-&-C-H. There ya' go Chuck, that's your lead-in!)
But you are absolutely right about Germans, engineering, and art. On that score you can't do better than the great Ferdinand Porsche quote, "It is the essence of the human spirit to seek a reason for being. This is why functional designs are so beautiful, so calming." (See: Dr Ferdinand Porsche Commercial, Time.)
The breaking/hubris thing is simply a misunderstanding of a typically precise engineer. "You can't break it" is not quite the same as "it can't break."
01-21-2015, 02:54 PM
#57
Drifting
I've never done one either, but a friend of mine did...
Duane never lets facts get in the way of a good story...
It was a BMW non-SCCA race car (E36 328)
The master of understatement.
I thought you quit?
I was at the event that Duane speaks of, in my non-interference engine Z06, about which Duane will certainly regale you with stories about how slow I was going (it was 3 days old and had alignment issues) but I remember him sitting at the side of the back straight (yes, he got the turn numbers all wrong, but that's OK, because like I said, facts just interfere with a good story) with a small trail of smoke coming out of the back of his poor leetle broken car.
Duane never lets facts get in the way of a good story...
My buddy Shane had just gone 'round me at T8 at VIR in his SCCA Audi Race Car on slicks
A new short block was $ 16,000 ... Wife was displeased.
I'm still instructing
I was at the event that Duane speaks of, in my non-interference engine Z06, about which Duane will certainly regale you with stories about how slow I was going (it was 3 days old and had alignment issues) but I remember him sitting at the side of the back straight (yes, he got the turn numbers all wrong, but that's OK, because like I said, facts just interfere with a good story) with a small trail of smoke coming out of the back of his poor leetle broken car.
01-21-2015, 02:57 PM
#58
Drifting
Perhaps you meant to write "broken English"?
Perhaps - and don't get mad at me - just perhaps, you should proof-read your contributions before clicking the "submit reply for ridicule" button.
01-21-2015, 03:31 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
I thought I asked a very simple and straight forward question... I will ask again: In a 991 with PDK will the car allow you to have Over revs?
Granted, while driving aggressively, you can hit the rev limiter while accelerating, hitting Cat. 1 or 2, which ,I believe is of no real concern, esp. when Porsche evaluates your car with a blown engine.
Mt very simple question is, on downshifts, will PDK allow you to go into Cat. 3 or above?
This vis a very simple, straight forward question, so far, lots of maybes, but no one with a definitive answer.
Cmon guys, do I really have to call Porsche of North America for a written response?
Granted, while driving aggressively, you can hit the rev limiter while accelerating, hitting Cat. 1 or 2, which ,I believe is of no real concern, esp. when Porsche evaluates your car with a blown engine.
Mt very simple question is, on downshifts, will PDK allow you to go into Cat. 3 or above?
This vis a very simple, straight forward question, so far, lots of maybes, but no one with a definitive answer.
Cmon guys, do I really have to call Porsche of North America for a written response?
Last edited by stronbl; 01-21-2015 at 08:00 PM.
01-21-2015, 03:51 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Ha!
Yes, Bird. You are correct. Broken English. Exactly.
He speaks more English than I speak German so suffice to say he gets the last word.
I was following this thread for a couple of days and I hadn't spoken with him for a couple of months. I like sending him pictures of old 240D Mercedes for sale here in the states in low mileage immaculate condition. The real old school German guys love 70's Benz's. 450 SEL 6.9's and so on.
Since everyone was chiming in and the fact that I own a PDK I thought I would ask him. The conversation went on way to long and was one sided. Him trying to explain to me dumb Americans and we both laugh and in the end don't get a definitive answer about anything at all about the questions I asked.
The art analogy was spot on. The Luger also.
To summarize, he told me not to worry about the PDK in my car and that I can't break it or damage the engine. I thought about this for only a few min. because of who he is and what he knows. He's right you know. That blue Turbo launch control video and that every fellow on this board and others would know about it if a LOT of PDK 991 transmissions started failing or blowing up engines.
There's also a funny story about me showing up to a party with all of these German guys at a house in one place and making fun of me the entire party for driving a big, fat, shiny new Escalade. Stupid American crap they called it.
All said, I don't mind being a punchline ever. It's all in good fun.
Short of having Andreas Preuninger come on Rennlist and tell us all we don't need to break in our cars or engines AT ALL, ever! ( I think Chuck would have an aneurysm ) not even one mile or have Andreas tell us to our faces that we don't need to worry about "money shifts" in a PDK car we will all continue to speculate to no end.