extanker

bottom line...i own a porsche AND I WILL NOT LINE UP AGAINST A C4/C5/C6/C7 THEY WILL BLOW MY DOORS OFF. you elton john type porsche race car posers know it too. get used to the rear of a vette its what you have been looking at for years

holminator

Ladies and gentleman, free crack is now available in the lobby, but you already knew it.

CaliforniaZombie

Okay, this one put a smile on my face. Pretty much sums up this entire thread in a single sentence

mi650

As I've said before, it's not about pure power. At least for me. If it were, I would have bought a ZR1.

kitwetzler

I was in the processing of doing a lease transfer on my 991 C2S coupe, as I had an order in at a dealership for a c7. I got a call from a dealership I'd emailed in San Diego. Someone had cancelled and a C7 was on the ground and was optioned pretty much exactly the way I wanted. Paid sticker, and was forced into a few addons, but it wasn't too bad, ended up about $1000 over. Oh well, I would have spent that shipping a car or finding a dealership to do courtesy delivery, etc. Drove it back from San Diego. (picked it up with 3 miles on it, turned over 500 when I got off my exit, and the Redline on the tach moved from 4500 -> normal redline, indicating it is fully broken in)

It was a Laguna Blue on Jet Black with microfiber insert 3LT Z51. Has the Magnetic Ride Control, the switchable performance exhaust, and a couple of other little things, pretty much fully loaded without any of the frivolous (to me) options, like the exposed CF hood and roof, glass roof, stripes, etc

Initial thoughts:

- The only torquey motors I've owned have been turbocharged. This is a whole different ball game. When you stomp on the throttle, you GO. It's pretty fantastic. It's fast enough to take the worlds out of my son's mouth. "Daddy, BROOOOOOOOM, GO Faaasss- " His eyes got wide and he just grinned!

- While the car is MUCH improved, it's still not the equivalent of a European car. The buttons all take a strong push and everything works, but the door cards are squishy, and while the leather wrapped dash is nice, there are some flaws, etc. It's still very nice inside and a huge improvement.

- Seat mechanism is just not up to par with the Europeans. It moves a little bit weird, etc. If you recline the seat, sometimes it feels like one side moves more than the other, weird stuff like that.

- The heads up display is really nice. I'd highly recommend it.

- The instrument cluster is pretty well done, doesn't wash out in sunlight, even with the top off, etc.

- The navigation screen, on the other hand, with a bit of sunlight, boom gone.

- This thing has more USB ports than my laptop!

- Shifter is very notchy and clunky feeling when the car is off, but when you are running through the gears, it feels great. 7th is a big stretch - it feels VERY natural to go from 7th to 4th. It's almost impossible to go from 7th to 2nd. going through the gears normally feels ok, but skipping gears makes things a bit weird - it's really hard to go from 4th to 7th, but 7th-4th feels fine. It's a tug to go from 5th to 6th (instead of 4th) and you have to be VERY deliberate to go to 7th.

- Brakes feel very strong and solid, similar pedal feel to my 991.

- HOLY CRAP this car has AWFUL paint. It's disgusting how much orange peel there is and there are some runs and stuff. It's really really bad. the actual paint color, Laguna Blue is gorgeous, clearly a multi layer metallic, but the application... man. Some people had gotten even worse ones!

Compared to the 991
- Vette feels *way* faster. Most of that is seat of the pants torque in your face, because most tests show the 911 (especially PDK) beating it
- the 991 still feels more tossable with more accurate steering.
- Both have electric steering but the 991 has a lot more feel.
- 991 has a much higher quality "feel" to it. All the controls click with more precision, etc
- The 991's navi is way better
- The 991's seat is way better
- The 991's ergos in general are better
- The 991 is way more roomy
- The 991's traditional gauge cluster manages to show more information than the Vette's fancy TFT screen.
- The 991 is more customizable - you can't change which shock settings or traction control settings are associated with the Vette's 5 driving modes (Weather, Eco, Touring, Sport and Track)
- The 991 is practically invisible. The Vette gets attention at every stop light - people just love it. My haircutter ($10 place) asked if it was a Ferrari. (My 3 year old) told her it was a Lamborghini and she was fine with that.

Anyway, in a strange turn of events, I couldn't go through with the lease transfer - PFS won't take your name off the lease, which means that the other person has to keep it registered in both your names. I was too uncomfortable with that liability so ended up keeping the 991 and selling the C7 while it was still hot. (and it was still hot - I sold it for MSRP, at a loss, but not that bad.)

I think the 991 is a better car overall (I just leased my 2nd one, traded the coupe in for a c4s cab, but that is another story. )

CBejbl

Nice review! Not a corvette guy, but i do appreciate the performance/value it offers.

holminator

I do wish Porsche included a HUD. That would be sweet. Nice write up.

Drifting

Depends on the Porsche. I'll line up my incoming GT3 against the Z51, no problem.

And I'll drive that same Porsche to the Symphony the following week. Don't expect to see any Corvettes in the parking area.

chuck911

Clever move letting your minor kids tell people its a Lamborghini. Insulates you from slander charges.

yemenmocha

+1

And I'm in the camp that doesn't like the rear of the Corvette too.

I think it does nothing but harm to the general impression of Porsche owners if they don't acknowledge the performance virtues of the base Corvette as well as acknowledge what the differences are for the 2 to 2.5x price difference of a 991. It's a little oversimplified to dismiss it as more expensive in a single sentence.

The 911 is somewhat becoming like what some Aston Martin models were in the 2000's - very pretty to look at, very expensive, and as a sports car it is fast, but you can get nearly the same or even superior performance at a much lower price elsewhere. I always respected AM owners because the AM's were beautiful cars, the owners had big bucks to drop on them, and if I had so much disposable income that the performance/value sort of thing didn't matter then I would have bought one too. For the rest of us, identical (or nearly so) performance at half the price is worth rethinking things.

docjohnM

Here is an interesting story that has something to do with the C7 development:

Take it for what it is, but it involves both Porsche and the C7..

Several years ago, shortly after the C6 was released, I was with a few of my friends at a SOLO autoX. We were all porsche owners at the time, and had a C4S, GT3, C2S, and a Boxster S, all in our group. We finished our runs and were basically just packing-up to leave, when we were approached by a couple of people who were very inquisitive...asking questions about who we were and what we did for a living and so forth. It turns out that they were 2 GM employees that were part of the Corvette Design team. Well, we were pretty impressed right off the bat. Just the fact that they were out there trying to figure things out said a lot about the effort they were putting out. So, they find out that all of my friends were engineers in the Aerospace/defense sectors, in addition to being national-level autocrossers. I was the lone club-racer non-engineer..LOL!

They said they needed our opinions on a conference call with their engineers.

We were like, "sure..why not."

Anyway, we get to the call. They ask what our opinions were about the C6.
This is where the 'shock' sets in.
They were expecting us to trash the "leaf springs" and "Pushrod" engine like they do on Top Gear.

They forgot they were talking to other engineers! (who sit around for hours thinking about the schematics of the vette and why certain things were done, and other things not done)

Instead, we generally showed deference and respect to the design elements. My engineer friends were appreciative of the fact that the engine was lighter and more compact than the V8 in the M3,an engine that is simpler and more tractable than the flat-6, as well as one that can achieve 30+MPG on the highway..... Having studied the design before, our engineers knew that the vettes engine was actually a fully developed, high-tech, state of the art design. Not many people know that, or just refuse to admit it because they only think about Formula 1 (forgetting that diesel engines are doing great on the racing circuit and are born of ancient designs). I told them that I was looking to purchase the german corvette (the E92 M3! LOL!). They were like, "nice engine"...lots of cam overlap..terrible fuel economy...heavier than our V8...Bigger than our V8....less area under the curve in HP and torque than our V8....and they kept going on and on. Ugh.. All I could think about was 108 bhp/liter. They asked why that was important. Outside of "they proved they could do it!"...we did not have much of a reply. There really was no objective disadvantage to the vette's V8.

Anyway, We continued all the way to the vette's ultra-low center of gravity (partly due to those composite leaf springs), the low hoodline, the optimized double a-arm suspension, comfortable ride, and so forth.

You could almost hear the surprise in their responses! I am pretty sure that they were expecting a kool-aid session about driving precision around the 'ring...

So then they asked what we didn't like.... we mentioned the flexy&poorly fit body panels, the horrid seats, the generally mid-level assembly and materials...as well as the image of the grey-haired man tooling around the highway with the roof stowed. We went on the discuss the distant way the car felt through the steering, and chassis on regular roads. Sure it livened up on the track, but felt like you were wearing mittens on the street. Overall, the car just feels "spooky" when you drive it.

Ironically, she was like, "our customers never complain about the seats"
We just started laughing!
We jokingly asked if they read ANY car magazines, and they hinted that they wanted to move on to other topics. Either way, I think they got the message.

We basically said that their traditional owners will all be dead soon from old age, and that they need to step up in the "experience" of driving a vehicle, rather that the simple ownership of a car that you admire in theory (or wanted from childhood because your dad was a chevy guy!) We told them to just go out and drive a base boxster and use it as a reference. She said that they were serious about getting our kind of person in their vehicles!

Shortly after this, 2 of my friends that were on that call eventually got the vette. One got a Z51, which he traded for a Z06 after 6 months. The other runs an older Z06 in SOLO. I bought that M3!!

The moral of the story is that GM is certainly trying to get better! And for that they get my respect. However, they can't sell a car to Discerning porsche buyers with 'drips' in the paint and differentials that left the factory without oil. It just won't happen. First thing they need to do is look at the video of the porsche assembly line and compare it to the gangly, scruffy bunch that is making corvettes. They stand around talking like the assembly of the car is ruining their day!

petee1997

There are many old guys driving Porsches also. I'm 71 by the way.

Drifting

Very true, but someone did a large survey a couple years ago on the average age of a Vette owner vs a 911 owner, and the average age of the Vette owner was nearly 10 years more than the average 911 owner. This adds to objective evidence to the subjective opinion that the Vette is a car for gray-haired guys to drive around in until they feel rambunctious enough to go buy some Viagra.

chuck911

Every once in a while we get something almost makes a vette thread in the 991 forum seem worthwhile. But seriously, thanks, Doc. Especially the engine bits. Very enlightening. But then I don't think anybody ever faulted the car for its power. Its all the other stuff- mittens, drips, mid-level assembly, "spooky" feel, poor fit and flex. (There's a Top Gear video on this thread where the seat flexes like the whole things made of cheap plastic! The driver's seat! You have to see it to believe it!) Unfortunately I remain unconvinced that GM is trying to get better. At least, not better in the sense of making a better car. They don't need to talk to anyone to figure out how to make the car better. Just pull one off the line and look at it. Or as you said, drive a base Boxster. (From 1999 would do for starters.) But marketing? Yes, they are definitely trying to do that better.

CaliforniaZombie

Yes - thank you Doc, it was an interesting read no doubt. However, along with Chuck it seems, I also remain unconvinced GM as a corporation is trying to get better at automobiles. Every time I hear the letters G and M get connected together - I have PTSD-like flashbacks to the GM executive presentation I mentioned on this thread before, bellowing to the audience with pride "GM is much more than a car company...." and proceeding to basically never reference automobiles in his talk again, and me walking out thinking no wonder these people make such crap on wheels - they have zero passion for automobiles.

I believe there are some good engineers in GM who are actually trying to make things better. The problem is, without a corporate culture that is truly passionate about automobiles as a whole - as Porsche is as one example - they will continue to produce couches on four wheels that try and pass for automobiles. All of this despite that minority of intelligent and passionate engineers - the group you likely ran into that day. Very likely, that group of passionate engineers will move to another automobile company that values their passion, or it will slowly die out only to become like the rest of the passion-free bean counters that make automobiles as a side note to other forms of business they're engaged in. Passion for what you do shows up in the end result - and the lack of passion shows up as well. For me, that's entirely exemplified by basically what chuck said - just look at the 991 and then look at the C7. For further evidence, drive them both.

The reason I'm posting in this thread so much is that I find it really disturbing that the big three have clearly no passion to do better. A few people in those organizations can "try" until they're blue in the face and nothing will change. I adore my 991, without a doubt. Although I'd love to see something close produced someday right here in the USA. And please don't get me started with what about this car that exists today, etc. There is nothing. Yes, there are passionate folks that love their C7, Shelby Mustangs (the production versions), etc. But that is simply biased passion in my opinion. I also really love Harley's, custom choppers, etc - but given that I'm an engineer, I know not to compare them technically to say a Ducati, or BMW, etc. I simply appreciate them for what they are - essentially low tech pieces of art, built by passionate people. Problem is, the big three produce low tech automobiles with zero passion, and it shows.