rpilot

Here is what I am going to order in the next day or so, based on my test drive impressions/ needs/ wants which are further below...

991 C2 3.4
GT Silver
Standard 19” Wheels
Black Full leather interior.
Premium Package Plus w/ 18 way Adaptive Seats
Burmester Package
PDK
Sport Tailpipes
Park Sensors F&R
Electric folding exterior mirrors.
Sunroof in Glass
Heated Steering
Multifunction Steering
Online Services

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I am putting down my test drive experience and selection logic from the perspective of a Porsche novice and a soon to be first time owner looking for a DD with a bit of fun. As such it will be helpful for others who are looking for this information from that perspective rather than that of a longtime Porsche owner/ track enthusiast. …. (Warning: LONG self indulgent post)

I drove these:
991 3.4 w/ 19 in wheels, PDK, Sound package plus (among a few other options)
AND
991S 3.8 w/ 20 classic wheels, PDK, Sport Chrono, PSE, Burmester (among some other options)

Both are excellent cars with great engines. 3.8 feels a bit more athletic in DD, probably because of more lower end torque and a somewhat lighter car feeling than the 3.4 which I attributed to the standard PTV Plus, but I can’t really be sure; it may have been the wheels or the default chassis setup. The lesser torque in the base engine at lower revs, however, makes the 3.4 car more fun to drive. Hard to explain it but revving the car a little more for a bit of spirited driving on public roads provides more thrills/$ than the 991S, price of 991S notwithstanding. I am never going to track (well, never say never) this car. The 3.8 seemed quicker off the bat and it seemed I would have to rein it in more and quickly to keep me in good standing with the DMV. Having said that, I would strongly advise anyone used to driving smooth very powerful sedans or American muscle to get the 3.8 over the 3.4.

One of the things that I was paying a lot of attention to was NVH and ride quality since deciding for/against PASM & PTV& DEM was a criteria.
RIDE QUALITY: There was NO difference (all of this is subjective of course) between “19 wheels no PASM” and “20 wheels w/PASM” (PASM Normal or off) on smooth level asphalt roads. On a concrete road, there was a very slight discernable difference but I can’t really say if one was better than the other. On a broken road, there is a discernable difference the two; however it is IMO more of a control at high speed issue vs. comfort issue. Yes, the PASM is more comfortable but no PASM did not mean uncomfortable. Where PASM mattered most was driving it in sport mode and then having a great compliant ride when going over broken pavement. We also drove on a stretch of brick cobblestone-type road in an office park at speeds ranging from 25-45 mph and found that in normal mode again, the PASM was discern-ably better but again non-PASM was not uncomfortable. Again, it was significantly better when driving the PASM in sport mode. Even the SA admitted he learned some things on these test drives with me.

(For those trying to ascertain my tolerances, my current car is a 2006 535i and before that I have driven Hondas mainly and an Acura TL-S and still have a 2003 Civic Si EP3 hatch which I love, parked in a vacation home and I am a 5’10”, 200 lb, 41 yo Male with no specific health issues that would affect my NVH perceptions.)

Another time PASM superiority was evident was in bringing the car to a screeching stop from around 55 mph, the brake dive was a bit less pronounced, although the perceived difference was quite small. It may be magnified at 100 mph or 150 mph on the track, but I cannot say for certain.
Vibration/ other harshness: I could not discern any real differences in speeds up to 85 mph on the freeway or on rough roads between the 3.4 w/ no DEM vs. the 3.8 with DEM. Also at the speeds I took corners in, I could not perceive any differences in engine load transfer between DEM and no DEM. I am not saying there are no differences that a more qualified 911 driver could not pick up on, either at the speed I was driving at or at higher speed turns, it’s just that I could not.

Cabin Noise: 991 3.4... Just perfect in normal mode for cruising. In sport mode it is a blast to listen to it when you are actively participating in driving the car, but the drone gets a little old when cruising. The 3.8 without the PSE on was similar in Normal mode, in sport mode even without PSE on, the 3.8 is louder and more “gruffer” than the 3.4. YMMV here, but I preferred the 3.4. The other cabin noise is from the tires and the 19” rubber sounded better (quieter) than the 20”, but the differences may or may not be because of the profile but more because of the tire brand/type as my SA pointed out.

Time to eat some of my words: The PSE does have its moments, I agree. Standing outside, the 3.8 just sounds very unrefined to me, but with the PSE it sounds pretty good. I still passionately dislike the burbles, but the rest of the sound is sweet. It is loud however. While driving in PSE & Sport, I think I could stand the PSE for a few minutes but then would get tired of it and my dislike of burbles would mean as long as I kept on the gas pedal, I would enjoy the sound, not so much when I backed off it.

My personal preference is for the sound of the 3.4 engine here, although I suspect that the PSE would be a very nice sound on the base 3.4 if you like the burbles (the dealer did not have such a combo on hand for me to try in person). I just wish there was a PSE with its throaty engine/ exhaust sound minus the burbles. Most people I suspect would love the PSE for short bursts of fun but would get tired of it after a while; although I am sure there are notables who would disagree with me and like the PSE on all the time.
PTV Plus: I am sure the PTV plus had something to do with the 991s feeling a bit smaller / lighter than the 991, and I am sure it helps in high speed corners, but nothing I as a novice could tell in my test drives.

In I end, I am choosing the 991 C2 3.4 because I enjoyed driving it more and seems more apt for my skill level. I also do not have the time or inclination to track the car given the time demands of family, work & other hobbies. Food for thought when Walter Rohrl and the technical program manger for the 991 both look at each other and say that the 991 without any other performance options is more than enough for over 90% of the use out there in an interview with a major car magazine.

I chose to leave off PASM, because the incremental benefits (to me) were outweighed by the following: a)slightly more ground clearance to go over dips in pavement getting in and out of driveways, etc. I was basically more relaxed with the 991 vs 991s at such moments. b) Less complexity.. I am keeping this car for a while and I am all too familiar with the less than stellar reliability of electronic modules in German cars and I am adhering to the KISS principle for this one.

PTV needs PASM, so I left that off too (although I would have simply added it if I had checked the PASM box).

No Sport Chrono for me again because a) I dislike the aesthetic elements. ie: the clock on the dash and the hump on the steering (with MF wheel which I like), b) I am probably never going to use sport chrono. I can always use manual mode in sport to get close to the redline for a blast if I want to. Also, launch control would be something I would try once if I had it, but have no inherent interest in. c) I could not tell the difference in comfort or cornering with DEM and d) again, KISS.

As far as looks go, I really dislike the oval tailpipe. It seems to be the fad of the moment and not timeless as the round tailpipes befitting the car. In an ideal world, Porsche would make a single round tailpipe on each side with the corresponding smaller notch in the rear apron for the C2, but since that is not easily doable, I am going with the sport tailpipe (same tailpipes included with PSE) option. The option for the same tailpipe as the C2S without PSE would have been better (no chrome, less angled) but that is also not available for the C2.

Finally, something I have not discussed so far, the audio system..

Sound Package Plus is really quite decent IMO whether standing still or cruising in normal mode at 50-80 mph. It is somewhat lacking in bass but does have pretty decent separation among the mid and higher frequencies and does not distort easily as the volume is turned up. Basically if you are not an audiophile, this should suffice for most general music listening needs with any source if you should choose to do so.

In all honesty, I was a bit biased against the Bose to begin with since I have heard Bose in other cars before and they all seem to share this fatiguing bass sound I find hard to describe and muddled mids and highs. Many uncritical audio listeners get wowed by the Bose’s soundstage but it wears me down quick. Nothing about the Bose in the 991 (which was in another car that I did not drive, just listened to the stereo in with engine off and idling) made me change my mind about this. Again, I do not mean to offend anyone who finds this worthy and have purchased this, I just can’t bring myself to option this.

Finally, the Burmester.. One word, ... “Awesome”. The highs, the mids so detailed, so rich, so full. The bass was very strong with a precise Germanic raw quality, much more precise than I like, so I had to turn it down to next to nothing to enjoy the sound, but again, “Awesome”. Deal of the century for $5K in my opinion, since Burmester charges around 100k for a decent in home sound system. Even more of a bargain when you consider the dab of GT Silver paint is going to set me back $3K. Finally last but immaterial at this point, I listen to music mostly in my car when alone rather than at home. This is the easiest choice I am going to make.

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For some more perspective, the price difference between the options and these two cars is not a concern of mine, although value driven by long term maintenance costs and cost/benefit ratio thereof is. The SA is strongly advising me against getting a C2 with 28 K in options as I am sure he feels he will not be able to get me a good trade in value on it. He prefers I consider the C2S. I am going to disregard him, simply because I plan to keep it a very long time and drive it in conjunction with another car / cars for around 6 -8 K miles / year. In other words, I have no plans to sell it this decade, maybe much longer.

If someone feels like I am really missing out on something in my choices based on my logic, I would appreciate a heads up, but I have pretty much made up my mind.

I test drove these on Saturday and wanted to take a couple of days to reflect on my test drives. I am planning to go by the dealer tomorrow or wed afternoon to finalize this and hopefully it will be here in time for my birthday in early May. Thanks to everyone here who has been so helpful and I hope this long post will help some others.

Noah Fect

Good info, thanks. Any chance you'd be able to try a PDCC-equipped car for comparison against a similar one without it? You're not looking for gadgets, I know, but there's a paucity of both subjective and objective information about just what PDCC does and does not do on rough roads under normal driving conditions.

chuckbdc

Congrads for making up your mind- it is difficult with so many variables. You are going to love it the driving is what is important, not the option list. The 991 Carrera has just about the power of previous S models and with the new PDK, about the same performance, the engine is super sweet at the top end, and the new suspension is a gem in any form. So if an S owner gets noisy- turn up the Burmeister and smile.

rpilot

The dealer did not have one of these available for a test drive, nor will they anytime soon, nor do I have a great interest in this personally, so I probably will not be seeking a test drive in this anytime soon. So, I can't help you unfortunately with subjective driving experiences . I also suspect unless this car is on a track (or a road where you dont care if you go to jail for reckless driving) , back to back with a similarly equipped car with PDCC being the only performance variable, in the hands of a capable driver, no one else will be able to help you either.

What I can comment on is some objective qualities , provide some data which I believe is accurate and some subjective conclusions from this data:

PDCC as I understand it is variable sway bar control. Static sway bars in suspensions can be very stiff and solid (great for flat cornering) or hollow for more comfort with more body lean in corners (all else being equal).

On the 991 C2 3.4 PDCC cannot be optioned, and it is fitted with 26.8 x 4.0 mm hollow sway bar. I doubt that even if PDCC could be optioned with C2, it would provide a more compliant ride with it than the hollow bar there . Theoretically a PDCC equipped C2 would provide flatter cornering when stiffened to its stiffer setting.

On the 991S with PASM the sway bar is a 26.8mm solid bar, so by default it is firmer for flatter cornering. My driving experience suggests no loss in perceived comfort from this given all the variables involved and PASM probably picks up some of the "comfort slack" that the solid sway bar leaves for it to provide. I am not sure what kind of sway bar is used in the C2 when optioned with PASM.

Also on the C2S optioned with SPASM the sway bar is fixed sway bar 28mm in size, with the increase in length largely to compensate for the difference in geometry between the PASM and SPASM. The comfort slack again should be taken up by the active dampers.

PDCC in theory should allow for a slightly more compliant ride with C2S when in comfort mode in that it would loosen up the sway bars a bit, and an even firmer ride when taken to its max setting. In practice I believe it makes little difference unless you are shaving of 10ths of seconds on a track at the same time robbing you of the feel of some G forces on your body and the cheap thrills in cornering. PDCC is probably more useful in an SUV or taller vehicle than in a 991 used for daily driving. I also think it is a hydraulic system so there is some weight, complexity and maintenance requirements added because of it.

I might take some flack for this, but I think honestly that if you have to ask what the PDCC is and does, you probably do not need it.

991Dreamer

rpilot-Thank you sooo much for your post on the C2 & C2S driving experience. I am in the process of trying to decide between the two and I found your thoughts to be most helpful. We seem to have much in common with this purchase. I currently drive a 2002 BMW 530i and while this won't be my first 911, it has been 25 years since my last so I feel like a novice also. It will be my DD and I will not track it.

I will be driving both cars back to back in about a week and should be able to make up my mind then which way to go but my suspicions are pretty much in line with what you found. My builds for both cars are below if you're interested. I may not be able to put my impressions in to words as you so eloquently did, but I know what I like even if I can't describe it (e.g. I like the taste of good wine but whether one has "like the faintest soupcon of like asparagus and just a flutter of a , like a, nutty Edam cheese" or not, I don't know. I know that it just tastes like good wine).

So I thank you again for your post. As someone who is going through the agony and ecstasy of deciding which one of these great models of a fabulous car to buy, reviews like yours are of great benefit.

C2--White w/std black interior, PDK, Sunroof, Sport Exhaust, Multi Function Steering Wheel, Smoking pkg.

C2S--White w/std black interior, PDK, Sunroof, Mulit Function Steering Wheel, Sport Design Wheels, smoking Pkg, Instruments in black.

simsgw

I like your build and I agree with the rational basis for your choices. You may know I ordered mine by listing what I really wanted and then reviewing candidates already built and en route from Germany. As a result, I got a couple of items I wouldn't have specified if ordering de novo.

One of those is the PDLS or "Porsche Dynamic Lighting System" which by itself or perhaps in conjunction with the premium package you already listed, provides some very subtle interior lights as well as improved headlights. I found the interior very welcoming at night without knowing exactly why until I analyzed the build sheet. The dynamic lights themselves come across as 'unnoticed', an adjective I associate with well-designed features. They just do their job better than otherwise without screaming for attention. I drove the car home at night and remember being impressed with "what excellent lights this car has" without realizing it was the PDLS achieving that result.

Now that I've used them, I do recommend both the interior lighting package and the dynamic lights. Price was low enough I didn't notice it in selecting which car to make my own, but they add noticeable value. I mean 'value' in the sense of personal pleasure in daily use, not at some hypothetical future sale.

I scoffed at these on the original order sheet, but now that I have the car and am traveling with it, I'm glad I ended up with that option. That's the only item I see missing that would be consistent with your build philosophy.

Good choices, rpilot.

Gary

rpilot

Thanks Gary and yes, the PDLS (swiveling headlights) and the light design package (interior lights) are included in the Premium Package plus along with heated/ventilated seats, auto dimming int/ext mirrors, RFID keys (i forget porsche's name for this now) and a couple of other luxuries.

simsgw

Walk-Away keys I think. At least it seems that way when you've been checking into hotels for ten days using valet service. It's very easy to forget the key is in your pocket although the car is still running. I've always remembered in time to turn around and hand them my key, so I don't know how the on-board computer reacts if you get out of range with the engine running. Some sort of security response I imagine, but armed retaliation against anyone in the driver's seat seems unlikely in these litigious times. Mace or pepper spray would stain the leather. A plaintiff cry for help perhaps.

Seriously, it's called "Porsche Enter and Drive" and it works quite seamlessly. This was another feature I'd never have ordered but I find it quite convenient, especially when the pocket with the key has been burdened with receipts and my Kindle and what have you at the most recent stop. Not essential around home, but a very useful addition in the touring car category of feature. If someone drives away while you keep the key, the engine shuts down or something like that.

Gary

chuckbdc

Plus magic trick hood popping (as in "The force is with you"). Yet more 991 smiles.

rpilot

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rpilot

Thanks for the kind words, but honestly I must have sounded like a snob d-bag when describing the Burmester sound.

Your describing wine in terms of asparagus is downright funny, but if I ever catch myself describing wine or cheese that way, I might have to contemplate suicide

Based on your build you are obviously limiting yourself to a minimalist build for cost or other reasons.

If for cost, I would highly recommend trying out the sport plus seats (not the adaptive, just the sport) if your dealer has them and see how you fit in them. I suspect you will love them assuming your body shape/type is amenable to those seats. Also, consider adding "online services" w/ aha as I am sure you or yours might find something entertaining there, if not now , then in the future.

On the sport design wheels, I will add this... if you really gotta have them because they look better than _______'s breasts, fine, I understand the concept as I am ordering GT Silver paint; however keep in mind that the wheels are even wider than the other 20 in wheels and the tire profiles even lower.. all else being equal easier to destroy those tires. So if cost is a concern ( i dont enjoy buying multi 1000 sets of tires very frequently either) then perhaps you should stick with the default wheels.

Don't rely on my conclusions. Test drive both and buy what feels right. Also, if you decide on the 3.4, consider buying a minimalist one off the dealers lot, or do what Gary did and see if your dealer can snag one enroute somewhere else to save you time and money (for business reasons that I am unaware of, dealers seem to give better deals on these).

Good luck !

991Dreamer

Didn't think any less of you re: the Burmester. Don't really feel I'm limiting myself on the build other than just wanting to be sensible about the options. Since this is my first 911 in over two decades, I'll probably not go hog wild then will be more extravagant on my next one if I find I miss some things. Don't really know about "online services" but will have to check it out.

It was just good to see someone choose the C2 over the S since it seems most people on this forum prefer the more powerful and heavily optioned S. Maybe they are more experienced 911 owners or drive differently than I do and I might get to that point one day but for now... Also, Chris Harris' review of the C2 in the August issue of Excellence hit a note with me.

Good tip about the Sport Design Wheels. The pics of docmalone's cab are what got me interested in them.

Will rely on my test drive comparisons when choosing between the two but I do have a problem with availibility. My local dealer only has one 991 in stock and it is a cab which I am not considering. I can drive several hundred miles to the north to see some cars that have some options I want then drive several hundred mile to the south to see the others but by that time I might just give up and keep my Bimmer. So my quest to see as many cars that I can while keeping my sanity continues. And yes, I agree with you about the wine and cheese description. It's a wonder Jack didn't kill Miles in Sideways.

chuck911

The Sport Design wheels are the same 8.5 & 11x20 as the Carrera S and Carrera Classic wheels. Only the Sport Techno wheels are 1/2" wider 9 & 11.5x20. All come with the same 245/35 & 295/30 ZR 20 tires. I suppose being 1/2" wider it might be slightly easier to damage either the tire sidewall, or the rim, but only slightly. Sport Technos are supposed to be a bit lighter and stronger, but nobody yet seems to know by how much, and one might as well just choose the wheel one thinks looks the best. They do look much better in person than any photos I have seen.

rpilot

My error. I mixed up the Sport Design with the Sport Techno. Although, AFAIK a wider wheel with the same size tire as a slightly narrower one, will end up having a lower profile, which was the essence of my point even if I stated it incorrectly.

Detroit Shooter

I like your build and I can appreciate your thinking.

I would reconsider 2 things. The S and the Sport Chronos package.

Over a short period of time you will become used to the power of the car and it will feel slower (I guess that would happen with the 3.4 or the 3.8) but having the extra power over time (you said a long time) is something I would want.

Their choice of Sport Chronos to name that package is a poor choice in my opinion. The package has nothing to do with the clock and everything to do with the Sport + setting and what it adds to the car. If the Sport setting wakes up the car the Sport + setting lights it on fire. The PDK trans in manual or Automatic shifts much more aggressively (harder). I find it hard to drive on the street in Automatic mode in Sport Plus because of how it handles the shift points and downshifts, they are all out and seem more appropriate for the track but in manual mode the shifts are very firm. When you want to go it is a much more impressive ride. Getting a little spin when shifting into second and third is not uncommon. It also changes the engine mapping which also adds to the drama. Also when in Sport + I frequently get notes of cinnamon and a fruity finish with a cumquat after glow.

Having launch control there is a nice touch, not something you use frequently but again very impressive and sure to bring a smile every time.

I happen to like the clock I think it gives the deep dash some character but to each his own.

The good news is that whatever you order is it sure to please.