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Seeking some input on this 991 build..

 
Old 11-24-2012, 01:05 AM
  #46  
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@Gary... Thanks, you always take the time! I may just end up with the 991 S. I am hoping to make up my mind and order before year’s end and hopefully it makes it here in time for my B ‘day in early May. I think I will call the Sales Manger and try to get a couple of longer test drives arranged in both cars to really make up my mind and hopefully they have some different variations.

I will keep in mind not to trust the nav too much when I get my car . I am a bit disappointed that Porsche chose to go the XM Navtraffic route, but I doubt anyone has ever complained to them about it either. They actually put TMC (traffic message channel) capability into their Euro-Spec cars. TMC is the traffic data that piggybacks onto FM Radio frequencies and it is available in major metros in the US, same as the XM since the data provider is Navteq. It works the same way the XM traffic does. It is not subscription per-se but the equipment manufacturer has to sign some kind of licensing / royalty agreement with Clear Channel communications. If BMW & Honda can do it, I think Porsche can too. They just chose not to for cost reasons, I am sure.

Again, thank you kindly.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:27 AM
  #47  
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One question that does come to mind is... Does having the PSE on the car change the note of the Car's exhaust anyway from a similar car without PSE? Pressing the noisemaker button sure makes it louder, but even with it off, does a PSE car sound different that the same car without it?
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
One question that does come to mind is... Does having the PSE on the car change the note of the Car's exhaust anyway from a similar car without PSE? Pressing the noisemaker button sure makes it louder, but even with it off, does a PSE car sound different that the same car without it?
Now that you definitely need back-to-back rides to evaluate. My own impression is that it does not, but I wasn't carrying a decibel meter in my test drives. I believe that PSE merely opens a shorter path for the exhaust that bypasses one of the mufflers. That would mean you couldn't tell the difference from curbside between an S with no PSE and an S with PSE turned off. Both of them will chuckle with a more mellow sound than the base model at idle or cruising speeds. Until you choose to hammer the throttle and take them to redline. Then either of them will make cows miscarry in the next county as they pass 6000 rpm.

Gary
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:56 AM
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:36 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by chuckbdc View Post
Wow.. that GT does sound good ! Powerful yet refined. thanks for the link.

What I cant figure out is why they could not find a way to charge a $1000 for the sound symposer and the hole in the filter housing option for those who love the noise and leave it out for those who don't. It would make everyone happy. They seem to find a way to charge for everything else, and Porsche owner's happily pay

Is the PSE sound in the link above with the Noisemaker button on or off , in your opinion? If off, it validates what I thought.. that the note of the car is different even when off and I still prefer the note of the 3.8 without. The 3.4 sounds closer to the GT IMO , even though the GT seems louder.

I plan on spending some quality time in each car if possible and making my final decision... I'm down to the sound of the engine in the cabin and how the ride feels with and without PASM. I will take the larger 20" wheels (and spend $1500 more on the carrera classic wheels ) if I go with the S. I will never be able to test PTV one way or the other, so I will order it if I order PASM with the 3.4.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:26 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Wow.. that GT does sound good ! Powerful yet refined. thanks for the link.

What I cant figure out is why they could not find a way to charge a $1000 for the sound symposer and the hole in the filter housing option for those who love the noise and leave it out for those who don't. It would make everyone happy. They seem to find a way to charge for everything else, and Porsche owner's happily pay

Is the PSE sound in the link above with the Noisemaker button on or off , in your opinion? If off, it validates what I thought.. that the note of the car is different even when off and I still prefer the note of the 3.8 without.
That will be with the PSE on. I resist the idea that with PSE off the exhaust is different than with PSE not installed. It seems extremely unlikely given the engineering objectives for this generation.

As for the Sound Symposer, it isn't achieved with a widget like BMW's version of a solution to the same problem. There is one small set of parts that provide a way to acquire the euphonious part of the sound in the engine bay, but mostly "Sound Symposer" is just marketing speak for "the engineers designed it this way and we wanted to brag about it."

The problem being solved is regulatory. In some markets, notably Switzerland and probably Berkeley in contemplation, the maximum sound is measured at a distance that represents pedestrians curbside when the car drives by. The measurement is therefore taken from outside the car and at relatively low rpm, as we'd see in a drive-by. That sort of rule changes the usual balance between sound outside the car and inside, and it also requires that sporting cars be very quiet in the low rpm ranges, unlike the old days where the advanced valve timing caused burbling and pops and whizzing at low power levels.

That's why even with PSE, the Porsches all are very quiet until a transition rpm is reached. I haven't read the standard test procedure myself, but I suppose it's around 3500 rpm. After that, the standard exhaust and especially the PSE can open things up, but below that the sound levels have to be quite calm compared to Ye Olden Days. Find a 997 coupe and listen to it at a traffic light. Somnolent when new and merely 'pleasant' after a few thousand miles open up the sound. The 991 addressed that issue by increasing the paths for acoustic energy into the cabin area. That provided a way to explicitly tune the sounds we hear in the cabin. We hear more of the good sounds and less of the noise when we ask for power, and damn all when we want to cruise and listen to music. I'm sure they figured the hotshoes bothered by a quiet engine would downshift three gears and have their own way. The rest of us would relish the chance to have a quiet ride on boring freeway stretches.

They also played some tricks with the ratio between idle acoustics and low-range acceleration, say up to 3000 rpm. That seems to give us a sound at idle from outside the car that is closer to the limit that is measured at 3500 rpm, so a 991 sounds better than a 997 even at idle, but the important thing is how it sounds to us drivers -- us buyers -- at higher speeds. We're gone pretty fast from the vicinity of non-buyers left standing on the curb.

Bottom line, the engineering goals carried the conflicts that capture the attention of the best engineers and stymie the others:
  1. Quiet in the drive-by mode;
  2. Quiet in the cabin for cruising, unless the driver chooses otherwise;
  3. Inspiring sound when dipping into the well of performance;
  4. Inspiring sound at idle, without exceeding the regulatory limits in drive-by;
and probably a few others we can ignore. Basically, I'd say the traditional worry about this trade-off can be left to Stuttgart from now on. The regulations in their crucial markets along with the corporate rule about not shipping different versions to different markets combine to satisfy people like you and me.

Others still can do a Gundo Hack if they absolutely have to sound like a Hotrod Lincoln.

Gary
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:58 PM
  #52  
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Just a little testing of the grip of the Michelin Alpin 4 snow tires this wet morning..in non-PSE mode I let out the clutch gently, then hammered the accelerator around a tight corner and into a straight, maybe about half a block's worth, with housing barriers on each side, in first gear.

The howl that came out of the demon-box behind my ears was just startling and I unconsciously jerked my body in surprise. This engine will let you know in no uncertain terms it is ready and willing to do whatever it possibly can to further the cause. I was seriously thinking I'd get a noise ticket without the PSE on and what a laugh that would be. It reverberated and echoed in such a lovely way. (we also had the top down in the wet 40 degree weather this morning)

Then I turned the PSE on. I'm so in love with this car.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:22 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Nicoli35 View Post
[...]The howl that came out of the demon-box behind my ears was just startling and I unconsciously jerked my body in surprise. This engine will let you know in no uncertain terms it is ready and willing to do whatever it possibly can to further the cause. I was seriously thinking I'd get a noise ticket without the PSE on and what a laugh that would be. It reverberated and echoed in such a lovely way. (we also had the top down in the wet 40 degree weather this morning)

Then I turned the PSE on. I'm so in love with this car.
Alright, confession is good for the soul. I had to tell the 997 folks who've been following my new-car adventure about the first track day for this beauty. I admitted something I might as well share here now that Nico has set the stage:
I have taken the new one to its first track day and it gave very respectable results for a car still in the break-in phase. I was a good boy, a responsible owner... for most of the laps. Ahem.

A confession I have not vouchsafed the 991 folks yet: A few nights ago, I grabbed a quick tankful of gas half a block from the restaurant I intended for dinner. On re-starting, I punched 'sport' mode which wakens the PSE as a side effect. Usually, I suppress that if I'm not on track, but I was maneuvering around a refrigerator truck restocking the station's snack shop so I didn't get around to that button. Pulled into the exit drive which has a sharp dip for drainage.

A car was turning onto the four-lane road from a light an eighth-mile away. Lots of room. I pulled across that dip gently to keep from bruising the cute little airdam our cars have and automatically checked the oncoming traffic once more as I accelerated gently away. Bozo in his Sport Lump took offense at my pulling onto his four-lane road and suddenly he was at full throttle planning to show his displeasure by strafing me.

A gentleman at this point would have backed up into the exitway to give him passage, but... well, it may come through now and again that I have this slight aggressive streak. I hide it quite successfully most of the time, ahem, but not always. While I was busy deciding what to order at the restaurant half a block away, that alter ego took over and sorta kinda dipped into the throttle a little too far. Alright 'he' might have firewalled it.

The PDK can't leave it at that, you know. It downshifted, hammered first all the way to redline, slammed a shift back up to second after what seemed like 1800 milliseconds of first gear trauma, and then... well, in that half block we managed to approach redline in second (if you don't know, go back to the 356 forum). And we did all that with sport exhaust engaged. Okay, okay. No committee was around. No 'we'. [I'm old; I was being so careful driving that I couldn't spare a thumb to upshift early; the dog ate my...] I'm afraid I did it all myself.

But my goodness. That sport exhaust near redline is a cheerful sound, isn't it? It echoed off buildings in both directions that normally are too far off the road surface to generate audible echoes. The other driver had a stunned expression as he weaved past in the Lumpmobile as I slowed for the restaurant. I might be wrong, but it looked like blood was running out of the ear nearest to me. Two old gentlemen in Wienerschnitzel lost control of their bladders. A woman swooned; her child was shaking her and crying 'Mommy!".

I shall remember to suppress PSE in civilized precincts hereafter. And keep it under 4000 again for the next 1074 miles.
This is definitely a calm, cultured car when cruising. But if you prod it...

Gary
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:41 PM
  #54  
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My goodness indeed hehe!
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:59 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
"Sound Symposer" is just marketing speak for "the engineers designed it this way and we wanted to brag about it."
I realized the "Sound Symposer" name was marketing speak but I thought for a feature. Little did I realize that it was for something so fundamental in the design and merely used by Marketing to sell. Maybe they should call people like me to the side and say.."Psst... we did not mean all that you know".

Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
They also played some tricks with the ratio between idle acoustics and low-range acceleration, say up to 3000 rpm. That seems to give us a sound at idle from outside the car that is closer to the limit that is measured at 3500 rpm, so a 991 sounds better than a 997 even at idle, but the important thing is how it sounds to us drivers -- us buyers -- at higher speeds. We're gone pretty fast from the vicinity of non-buyers left standing on the curb.

Bottom line, the engineering goals carried the conflicts that capture the attention of the best engineers and stymie the others:
  1. Quiet in the drive-by mode;
  2. Quiet in the cabin for cruising, unless the driver chooses otherwise;
  3. Inspiring sound when dipping into the well of performance;
  4. Inspiring sound at idle, without exceeding the regulatory limits in drive-by;
and probably a few others we can ignore. Basically, I'd say the traditional worry about this trade-off can be left to Stuttgart from now on. The regulations in their crucial markets along with the corporate rule about not shipping different versions to different markets combine to satisfy people like you and me.

Others still can do a Gundo Hack if they absolutely have to sound like a Hotrod Lincoln.
For clarification, just so I get a better handle on this, are you also factoring PSE into the above engineering bullet point list or is that considered a "semi-Gundo" hack by Porsche itself that still meets the worldwide baseline regulations?

Other than that, all I can say is, Wow! I have never read or heard a better explanation of this. Time to write a 991 field manual.

Chapter 1: Marketing Poseurs & Sound Symposers.

Originally Posted by simsgw View Post

But my goodness. That sport exhaust near redline is a cheerful sound, isn't it? It echoed off buildings in both directions that normally are too far off the road surface to generate audible echoes. The other driver had a stunned expression as he weaved past in the Lumpmobile as I slowed for the restaurant. I might be wrong, but it looked like blood was running out of the ear nearest to me. Two old gentlemen in Wienerschnitzel lost control of their bladders. A woman swooned; her child was shaking her and crying 'Mommy!".

Gary
Chapter 2: Lumpmobiles & Wienerschnitzels, women swoon and children cry.


-- Incredible stuff, Thank you !! Put me in a great mood for the rest of the weekend.

Last edited by rpilot; 11-24-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:53 PM
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So. To sum up. The Carrera sounds great at high revs. Since it needs to be revved for high performance, it will provide aural delight frequently. The Carrera S since it does not have to be wound so tight for high performance it seems quieter in normal use, but delightfully deep and nasty at high revs. PSE magnifies the effects for both, and unleashes a bit of (what I think of as) high valve lift backfire burble when it shifts up and more of same when downshifting. Sort of like Apple marketing: Good, Better Best. (Of course the GT3 is going to come along soon with center pipes that are tuned llke a pipe organ to send chills up your back).
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Maybe they should call people like me to the side and say.."Psst... we did not mean all that you know".
The myriad stigmata of Marketing have been capsulized in your words I just italicized.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
For clarification, just so I get a better handle on this, are you also factoring PSE into the above engineering bullet point list or is that considered a "semi-Gundo" hack by Porsche itself that still meets the worldwide baseline regulations?
Yes. Uh, that is, a little of both. I'm sure the engineers at Porsche think of PSE as a semi-Gundo hack because it's really just a well-built version of the cut-outs we had on our cars in the fifties. In our day, we pulled on a cable to open the exhaust cut-out going past the house of a girl we wanted to impress, and frantically pulled it closed going by a cop car.

PSE meets the requirements of most markets for exhaust noise, but can be frantically pulled from sale in countries like Switzerland. At least, that's how I view it. Having tried it, I find it impossible to believe that a PSE car with it in use could pass the noise regulations of Switzerland. Even allowing for that trick of keeping things quiet until passing 3500 rpm. In fact, I'm not sure it would pass the tests at Laguna Seca Raceway in Northern California.

PSE also would be very useful in rousing the populace to burn witches and stake vampires if you could find a way to blame the acoustic carnage on the intended target.

Gary
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
The myriad stigmata of Marketing have been capsulized in your words I just italicized.


Yes. Uh, that is, a little of both. I'm sure the engineers at Porsche think of PSE as a semi-Gundo hack because it's really just a well-built version of the cut-outs we had on our cars in the fifties. In our day, we pulled on a cable to open the exhaust cut-out going past the house of a girl we wanted to impress, and frantically pulled it closed going by a cop car.

PSE meets the requirements of most markets for exhaust noise, but can be frantically pulled from sale in countries like Switzerland. At least, that's how I view it. Having tried it, I find it impossible to believe that a PSE car with it in use could pass the noise regulations of Switzerland. Even allowing for that trick of keeping things quiet until passing 3500 rpm. In fact, I'm not sure it would pass the tests at Laguna Seca Raceway in Northern California.

PSE also would be very useful in rousing the populace to burn witches and stake vampires if you could find a way to blame the acoustic carnage on the intended target.

Gary
Are you sure you remember correctly what you pulled?
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chuckbdc View Post
So. To sum up. The Carrera sounds great at high revs. Since it needs to be revved for high performance, it will provide aural delight frequently. The Carrera S since it does not have to be wound so tight for high performance it seems quieter in normal use, but delightfully deep and nasty at high revs. PSE magnifies the effects for both, and unleashes a bit of (what I think of as) high valve lift backfire burble when it shifts up and more of same when downshifting. Sort of like Apple marketing: Good, Better Best. (Of course the GT3 is going to come along soon with center pipes that are tuned llke a pipe organ to send chills up your back).
That's how I understand it now ! At the very least it gives me the theoretical knowledge to apply on my long (hopefully) test drives and come to my final conclusions in ordering the right car for me. Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
The myriad stigmata of Marketing have been capsulized in your words I just italicized.


Yes. Uh, that is, a little of both. I'm sure the engineers at Porsche think of PSE as a semi-Gundo hack because it's really just a well-built version of the cut-outs we had on our cars in the fifties. In our day, we pulled on a cable to open the exhaust cut-out going past the house of a girl we wanted to impress, and frantically pulled it closed going by a cop car.

PSE meets the requirements of most markets for exhaust noise, but can be frantically pulled from sale in countries like Switzerland. At least, that's how I view it. Having tried it, I find it impossible to believe that a PSE car with it in use could pass the noise regulations of Switzerland. Even allowing for that trick of keeping things quiet until passing 3500 rpm. In fact, I'm not sure it would pass the tests at Laguna Seca Raceway in Northern California.

PSE also would be very useful in rousing the populace to burn witches and stake vampires if you could find a way to blame the acoustic carnage on the intended target.

Gary
So that's what some good ol' boys down were trying to tell me once. I never tried to really understand how those old time noisemakers worked.

I kinda also feel a little dumb for it somehow not "clicking" in my head that the PSE switch was an analogy for that exhaust cutout cable pull. Guess I drank too much of the sound symposer kool-aid to think straight.

And honestly, given what you have been saying about the PSE, I really dont see how it meets any regulations in any market unless they skirt around the letter of the law without honoring the spirit thereof. Perhaps since the PSE is an option, it does not count??? I don't know.

Thanks again Gary.
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