rpilot

What is it with the PSE fetish on this board? I think I will have to demo it just to see what I am missing, but don't hold your breath. burbles will have to compete with silence... And I think I am going to save that $950 too if I go with the 3.4 and live with the oval tailpipe for a while and see how I like it. Apparently that part is available for slightly less from suncoast & labor to put it on should not total up to be much more than the $950 asking price if I change my mind later. I still need to make up mind on the PASM/PTV combo and then decide if I want to get S instead anyway.

And furthermore, if this comparison video is indicative (and I dont know that it is) of the sounds of the base, S and the S with the PSE, I am pretty confident I have Zero, Zilch, Nada interest in the PSE.

Galion

Is it me or the Base Carrera sounds nicer?

chuckbdc

So which way are you leaning on PSE?

rpilot

Hard to tell. At first I would have to agree but then the base sounds a bit whiny and the S sounds a bit throaty at full on power. I listened to them both with a good headset and there are times when one sounds better than the other but I really dont know what conditions each one was recorded in and it seems the sound was recorded from the outside and how it sounds in the cabin is more important to me... Either way I prefer not to have the PSE.

Safe to say, PSE is out. How are you coming along on the clear side markers to keep the populace here happy anyways?

gjnockie

Thought I would chime in on this discussion.

I have obsessed over these same choices myself in the past so I understand everyones point of view.

Monday I am picking up my 5th Porsche. This one will be a 2012 991 manual Cab.
Been looking for some time now and I was going to order a 2013 Cab but this car came up and it is such a fabulous deal that I can't pass it up. The car has the optional twin chrome tailpipes. To me I think they are a waste of money and I personally like the std oval pipes better.

My 09 S PDK Coupe was the first automatic Porsche I had and I am going back to a manual because I like it better and the car is only a weekend ride for me. I had PASM on my 09 and I never used the Sport suspension setting because for around town driving it made the ride to stiff and unpleasant IMHO. I also will never track the car. I drove the car around that I am buying and to me the ride quality was fine and it handled plenty good for my driving style. My only concern is that the 3.4 Cab won't be that much slower than my 09 S.

I have found that sometimes less is more when it comes to these cars and I personally never used half the options I paid for. My favorite car was my 06 Base GT Silver Manual Coupe. It had Bose and Power seats and not much else.

rpilot

Thanks for the input.. Honestly there is no accounting for taste but I agree with you that I don't much care for the chrome twin pipes. What I would like is the non-chrome twin pipes that are standard on the S. Either way, I think one or the other will grow on me and I can change them out if not.

Top Speed or even rate of acceleration between the 3.4 and 3.8 has never been a concern of mine, however day to day livability between the two has. Is the 3.4 quieter inside? Will I be able to talk comfortably on the phone on my way to work.? Will I be able to take it on a 5-6 hour drive to another town and get some cheap thrills while doing it without getting fatigued by the sound?

The consideration really is.. Will I feel bad about not getting the PASM to keep my rear end happy on rough roads? Will I feel that I could not take the corner fast enough WITHOUT my tail breaking loose because I did not order PTV. Even worse, will I feel bad when the neighbors kid brags that his ford focus ST has torque vectoring (and I really have a neighbor with a kid who has that car).. will I feel stupid for having spend $100K + and not get PTV? I know.. I know.. I will shut up now..

The other consideration is.. My build for the Base 991 with mostly luxo options comes to $112,xxx and with the PASM & PTV Plus to $115,xxx. At that point with the same build (and adding classic wheels, since I am getting larger wheels with the S anyway.. a sore point, BTW) the S options out to $127,xxx. Would it not be a better financial decision to just buy the S anyway, since it might getter value when I sell it (which hopefully will not be for a long time) being an S with 30k of options instead of a Base with around 33K of options? I don't know. I promised myself I would not let resale value guide my decisions, but sometimes it makes sense just to get the S.

rpilot

On listening to that soundtrack a few more times, I would have to agree with you. However I am also beginning to see why folks like the PSE better especially when compared to the S model. The S on its own seems to have an unrefined "burble" at idle mixed in with the rest of the engine sound and at full power. The PSE makes the burble louder and yet more "refined" and at the same time segregates the non-burble sound to be more clearer, especially at full power, thereby enhancing that "driving through the canyons and mountain tunnels" sound. That is a sweet note.

However, I would be tired of that in about 30 seconds. So on balance, atleast from that video, the 3.4 has the best sound of all to me. YMMV.

chuckbdc

Based on the fact that the 3.8 is quieter, or (to me) deeper and less sporty sounding than the 3.4 at higher RPM, I have pretty much decided that my first mod will be to get PSE. The 991S PDK in normal mode (not Sport or Sport Plus) has so much torque that it keeps revs down and is quieter than my sedan in typical commuting or regular use. Even with 20s and the sport suspension, the PASM suspension (which does its adjustable thing ALL the time and not just when Sport is selected) is supple, and soaks up bumps far better than prior generation 911s with non-sport suspensions. So PSE will provide that little extra bit of Porschiness that I enjoy- any time I push the button time. And an extra helping of it when I manually shift it or give it a higher rpm shift mode via the Sport or Sport Plus settings. I tend to listed to music in the comfort and quiet of my den rather than in my car, and my car in the comfort on my car rather than in my den, so the crummy old Bose is adequate for me there. After that I will confront the orange vs clear conundrum again.

rpilot

You know .. I thought about that at one time in my 3.4 vs 3.8 dilemna as well. Based solely on that video I would say.. 3.4 better than PSE 3.8 better than 3.8. But I also want an ultra quiet ride when commuting. Are you saying in your opinion that the 3.8 is quieter as a daily (ie: driving in normal and keeping the rpms low) vs the 3.4. Again I need to spend some time in each to reach my own conclusions. And I was just kidding about the orange vs clear. I think I like the orange better too.

Galion

^^^ Imo the 3.4 and 3.8 are both quiet inside if you keep the revs down or until you press the sport button and the sound symposer kicks in.
Only problem I see is that the 3.4l 991 needs to be driven in sport mode all the time, even if you are just cruising in a relaxed manner, not shure about the 3.8l.
Normal mode should be called ECO mode, and Sport mode = Normal.

rpilot

The sport button / symposer / PSE interaction in each combination is also something I have not totally understood.

Please correct me here if necessary and/or help me fill in the blanks:

3.4 No PSE
Normal Mode: Sound Symposer OFF
Sport Mode: Sound Symposer ON
Can you drive in Sport Mode without Sound Symposer ON: ??
Is there a Sound Symposer ON button only without going in Sport Mode: ??

3.4 w/ PSE
Is Sound Symposer / enabling the Sports Exhaust synonymous?
If So,
Normal Mode: PSE OFF
Sport Mode: PSE ON
Can you drive in Sport Mode without PSE ON: ??
Is there a PSE only button : I think there is.

3.8 S No PSE
Normal Mode: ?? Is Sound Symposer always OFF here? .. What is the 2 stage system?
Sport Mode: Sound Symposer ON
Can you drive in Sport Mode without Sound Symposer ON: ??
Is there a Sound Symposer ON button only without going in Sport Mode: ??

3.8 S w/ PSE
Again Is Sound Symposer / enabling the Sports Exhaust synonymous?
If So,
Normal Mode: PSE OFF ? 2 Stage System?
Sport Mode: PSE ON
Can you drive in Sport Mode without PSE ON: ?? Again what is the 2 stage system?
Is there a PSE only button : I think there is.
------
This would be the easiest decision in the world, if Porsche had 4 cars in each metropolitian area with various combinations of suspensions, tire sizes , engines & exhaust along with different interiors. In a few years when PCNA opens the Atlanta Headquarters with the test track, I think I will have just that.. but I want the car now !!!

David in Talent

For all of your considerations, I find it advisable to go with the Carrera S without the PSE. Better to have an overbuilt car than and underbuilt car . And better to be OVERwhelmed than UNDERwhelmed IMHO ;-) Down the road come trade-in time you will recoup your investment. S models ALWAYS sell at a premium to the base models. Better perceived value in the S (and your neighbor will NEVER turn his nose up at a Carrera S !!)............

simsgw

Neither was I. Didn't even realize I had it until I checked the option list to answer your questions. But I'm content it was included.
Oho! Not to overuse 'aha'. I saw those references in the manual and promptly forgot, since I knew I hadn't ordered it.

Another attitude I understand. For me, it's PayPal and a similar conflict in our past. I found I never used XM on my previous Carrera and they got the offered price down to $5/month before they succeeded in getting me back. That was just cheap enough to be unnoticeable between the rare occasions when I want something 'live' to supplement my music collection on memory sticks.

I'm in the trial period with this new car, and I did notice one potentially useful XM feature. The nav system responded to traffic data by choosing a new route twice in my most recent excursion. I was extremely skeptical, since this is the nav system that has tried to route me over roads not used since the twenty-mule teams left California. In the spirit of charity, I followed the revised route and was surprised to find that 'Heidi' had this one right both times. The off-freeway diversion was low in traffic, certainly quicker, and did not take me through some bombed-out district that makes you wish for infantry support. Quite pleasant break from the heavy holiday stop-n-go's to be honest. I'm still not interested in their music channels, merely for reasons of personal habit, but I may decide to keep XM for the traffic feature. (Which requires both, I know.)

A very sensible approach. As I say, these cars come from our toy money. Spend it where it brings joy.
I'll go with my first reaction: it murmurs. Like an English gentleman's gentleman in a situation where chuckling would be unseemly.

I must confide that I have very limited experience with the 3.4 though. I chose a dealer likely to have the company cred to preempt cars headed for other dealers, so I could specify my own configuration without having to wait for a custom build from the factory. That "company cred" means a seriously high-end market around Auto Gallery that seems to preclude anything less than an S for most of the cars they order. Carrera GT, yes. Speedsters, plural, yes. Every form of S known to Porschehood, but simple Carreras were thin on the ground. I like them, I just can't really say I know them. If that makes sense.

A happy Thanksgiving weekend and good holidays to you as well,

Gary

simsgw

I would say that it is a good sample of all three exhausts. Basically, the recording was done from outside, so the interior levels are down four to six db from those levels, but they haven't tampered with the spectrum. The base and the S seem to have the same exhaust path to my ear, though I might be wrong. The difference lies in the deeper components of the S and those arise from the extra displacement and the tuning adjustments that take advantage of the extra 400 cc.

The sport exhaust changes the exhaust path, and gets louder without seeming to change tone to my ear at least. What it also does is permit a certain amount of post-chamber combustion. That's what creates those pops on the over-run and during shifts. In my '49 Ford, we just called 'em backfires.

I agree that PSE is only useful when you need to show off or the surroundings get so loud that you have to have PSE to avoid seeming like a wallflower. I've outlived the former impulse, and the only time the latter arises for me is at tracks, where we have so many cars running what sounds like an open exhaust that my PSE seems positively demure. Appealing, but demure. That suits the character of this Carrera for me, so I'm happy to have the PSE for times when 'demure' requires that extra few db, but I don't see it being necessary away from tracks.

Gary

simsgw

Reviews make it sound more complicated than it is, I think.

Sound Symposer may well be changing modes in the background, but it isn't noticeable to a fairly observant driver. No explicit control is provided. Whatever changes it does make seem to blend seamlessly with the choices I do make, which are these:

• Do I want 'Sport' enabled?
• Do I want PASM to stiffen up the suspension?
  
  End of queries.

Sport mode tightens up the shifts, while also suppressing the start/stop feature at traffic lights. I don't find that latter objectionable, and when I was just doddling around showing the car to my niece-in-law, I left the car in touring mode until she asked me to show her more. Then I selected 'sport' to add some sound effects and crisp, burping downshifts, but I did not select PSE. Just because I'm not inclined to shout, as I said. My niece loved it like that. With the top down, you get just enough sound in the low ranges I'm using for break-in, but not so much you feel like a teen-age fool.

I'm willing to agree that leaving the car in touring mode, it might be quieter, but I have to say I never noticed the difference. When I don't put my foot in it, the car's cockpit is a calm and quiet place, suitable for easy conversation or good music. With or without 'sport' selected. I'm having trouble with cell phones right now, and I'm between working examples, but I did try the Bluetooth phone connection right after I picked up the car and found it enormously better than the arrangement in my 997.

I didn't show enough interest in the 3.4's to explore that range, as I said, but I'd say any dealer in the pretty hefty company of Auto Gallery in Los Angeles is likely to have that selection available to examine. You might have to open your visit with a conversation with the Sales Manager to make it happen though. A salesman is going to focus on the model he most wants to sell.

Gary