sapman

You're avoiding the question.

You said "You don't find out what a car is really about until you strip it down of all of the nannies and go for it."

A manual 997 beat a 991 shifting in comfort mode around the track. How is that a realistic or fair comparison? To drive a PDK round a track in such a manner is handicapping the car.

Your response did nothing to explain how you driving a PDK without sport mode is a "Nanny".

Can you clarify how that is a "Nanny"? Or are you going to try to avoid that question again?


The only excuses being made here are people grasping at straws to try and explain how a 997 could beat a 991 while ignoring the fact that an integral part of the 991's functionality is disabled.

Are you really going with this? You think Porsche would release a 911 slower than the previous model? You are going to believe one badly written report devoid of details versus the world's motoring press?

I can understand when people say they don't like how the 991 drives. That's a perfectly rational argument (though it is sometimes used to cover other reasons why a new model 911 is threatening), but your argument that the 997 is faster than the 991 flies in the face of overwhelming evidence. Sorry, but that's a fact and your neuroses are going to have to find some other posts to quote and put your +10000000000s on.

Simple question - Have you driven a 991?

zanwar

It never occurred to me they might be running at the track in standard automatic mode, rather than manual override. Even then, in a road course situation you're generally deep into the gas or the brake, or you're subject to corner load which should prevent the computer from initiating a shift. If there was a difference in 997/991 performance on the day, I would imagine it was related to lack of experience with the newer car. Just from looking at the specs of the 991, it should be faster on a medium speed track.

alexb76

YES, Twice... Once was AFTER test driving the new McLaren, which was simply amazing!

How many time did you drive it? and for how long? Have you EVER lapped Nurburgring before? Did you attend last 3yrs of Porsche Cup in Germany? At Hockenheim and Nurburgring?

Even the sales manager (who I know for years) said 991 is more luxury, softer while 997 was more sporty, less luxury. It is also being targeted like that at the dealer, they were telling this guy that the new 911 is larger, more compliant ride, quieter, and has better electronics, and luxury items hence fits the luxury needs of you (he had an AMG). That's what the sales guy was totally highlighting, NO MENTION of performance or handling. THAT's HOW it's targetted, to get M3, AMG customers!

I mean come on guys, there's no denying the fact that 991 is LESS of a sports car, and more of a GT. They did that while keeping the performance in-line with 997 sportier car, which is an achievement on its own, while they have changed the DNA of the car, so it is not to the liking of many as you can see for yourself! You simply cannot deny that, if you did, you have an agenda, are blind, or ignorant.

Whether or not the car is faster, can be debated and proven by different drivers, at different events,etc... but the 991 is MORE GT, ALL AROUND... there's absolutely no question about it. It's even marketed/targeted that way, just watch their advertising.

PS. I see you've ordered one, but probably haven't got it yet, and I guess are upset people are reviewing your ordered car negatively! Apologies and congrats on your purchase, it's a good car, it's just a different car than 997, and less of a 911 with different character that doesn't fit mine and many others' needs, while it definitely meets yours, so as long as you enjoy the car, who cares what others and I say here? Enjoy it!

wanna911

You seem to be barking up all the wrong trees.

Pdk is a nanny, a little handicap only makes the straight line performance more even. Barber is a handling track not a HP track and even in comfort mode the 991 still has a plethora of advantages as i mentioned. So the 997 would have had.to handle better to go faster.

Stop trying to act like the 991 had three wheels.on it. Comfort mode does not mean half throttle.

Monetthecat

Its my 5th post so newbie to the group here...

These debates b/t 997 and 991 are making the Marketing department back in Stuttgart deliriously happy. Its telling them that the direction that Porsche took with the 991 was right on point. The verifies for Porsche the immense brand loyalty that Porsche owners have, keeps the 997 alive and well until the 991 variants arrive (4, 4S, GTS, GTS4, Black, GT3, etc) and opens the 911 model up for more buyers.

I think Porsche knows that to continue sales growth of the 911 they need to appeal to a broader audience. Aston, Audi, Jaguar and Maserati have all targeted (really good) products in the $100-$130K range that offer a threat to the 911 in one way or another. Not to mention the proliferation of AMG models and the next gen M6.

My personal experience is that I’ve owned my fair share of German sports cars (term used loosely) including AMG, Audi S/RS and BMW M. Each time the itch arrives for a purchase I’ve marched myself down to the local Porsche dealer for a test drive of a 911. Done this 3 times with the 996, 997.1 and 997.2. Each time I walk away with an overall impression that the car is brilliant. Everything from seating comfort, steering, performance, etc… is nearly perfect. The engineering in the car is beyond what my driving capabilities will ever be. However, I force myself to answer one question during the test drive and that is do I want to be in this car on a Friday night, in stop-n-go traffic on Lakeshore Drive (Chicago) when the Cubs have a night game.

The problem is the answer has always been “no” to this point. It’s not that the 996/997 are not easy enough to drive, but (for me) it wasn’t a place I wanted to spend time in if I wasn’t moving forward. I had the same experience on test drives of the Audi R8. Brilliant on open road (perhaps more so than the 911), but a bear to drive in traffic (certainly more so than the 911). So back to AMG, RS and M I went.

So along comes the 991 and I take my test drive. I finally answer the question “yes”. It’s hard to say why, but overall cabin comfort, throttle response, in-cabin tech, etc.. all play into it. I don't want to spending $100K on a car that I cannot drive every day (winter weather permitting).

So Porsche knows that many people will be put off by the GT’ness of the 991, but in doing so they gather more buyers and in the near future roll out the GTS and GT3 991 models to address those that want a more visceral experience that might be missing for some.

tgcrun

You might be a newbie, but that was very well said. Despite all the debate, the scorn, and the insults, I'm STILL looking forward to my 991S Cab, and like most of the 991 owners on this board, I'm gonna love it. And I'm not a newbie to Porsche ownership; this will be my 6th 911.

neanicu

I wonder if the procentage of whiners is more than 1%. The so called ' purists '. I doubt it... What do you think?
The whiners sound like a broken record. This is similar to the protests that happened on Wall Street and all over the country,only that those were the 99%.
As I've said in another thread,THE PORSCHE BRAND IS A BUSINESS and they're looking for profit.
Without the introduction of the Cayenne and Panamera,Porsche might have been bankrupt by now. Those 2 models bring the most profit.
Porsche Executives need to make business decisions,even if that ' upsets ' the 1%.
That's all there is...A BUSINESS!
We'll see in the future if it was a good business decision or not...
BTW,I really enjoyed my 991S test drive,I think it's a 911 alright...!

DrJay

and yet, 997s sit on dealer lots unsold while 991s fly off the lot...

speed21

No offence but I'm lost with your comment on ring times? My understanding is 991 consistently matches 997GT3.2 around Nurburgring. Thats quite a feat wouldnt you say? And the times are proof of that. I didn't see that was the case with the 997 vs 997GT3.1 or .2....as the times confirm that as well. So im not clear with what you mean when you state the 991 is not much faster than 997 when the official times between these two cars actually confirm quite a significant difference. So what do you refer to as not that much faster? Are you refering to the acceleration perhaps? Confused....

btw did you happen to read this? http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...l-masters.html

I ask because it does kinda contradict the OP. Just saying...its odd how one "group" can come up with an entirely different conclusion to the other.

Agree, and considering the funtionality of PSM and Sport Modes id've likened that to putting a prized fighter into the ring with his hands roped behind his back. Not really a way to make any fair comparison really.

MJones

Sport mode was available to be used on the 991 at PSDS..

sapman

I suppose the 997 is faster then the Macca also?

I just bought one and test drove it for two days.

Not sure what the relevance here is, unless you are trying to get into some sort of pissing contest. ( I have no interest in that) But if you are really that curious, having worked and lived in Europe for over 20 years, I have driven the 'Ring a few times and been to lots of different tracks as a spectator (Spa, Silverstone, Monaco etc.).

Ah, the sales manager. A well known source of information nobody else has access to.

I wonder did they use the "911 is larger, more compliant ride, quieter, and has better electronics, and luxury items hence fits the luxury needs of you" line when they were selling the 997 back in 04/05. It was as true then as it is now.

Compared to what? The 997? How does that compare to the 993 or 964, or hell, even the 356? The Goldilocks argument? The 997 is 'just right'?

Is that a way of saying that there is always some forum post that says "the 997 is faster than the 991" to go up against all of the press and tests that show otherwise? Model for model, the 991 is faster than the 997.

I am not upset as there is no reason to be. It is just a metal box on four wheels. I had an extraordinary choice of cars to buy and I picked what was the best one for me. I nearly bought a 997 in 2006, but it didn't pan out. I can't imagine buying one now (except perhaps a 7.2 GT3) as it seems like old technology. If I were interested in the market for an older 911, it would be air cooled.

It does irk me somewhat to read people saying things that are borderline impossible to believe or categorically untrue just because they are unhappy in some way because there is a newer version of their car out. I notice that there hasn't been much written by pre 997 owners regarding this. I know there's a good psychology thesis there somewhere. Some call it passion, others might call it something else.

sapman

Thanks for that. It is just the level of detail this thread is screaming for.

sapman

PDK is a nanny? A dual clutch transmission is a nanny? Interesting position, I'll leave it at that.

In any case, at this point the story of this so-called faster lap time lacks so much detail that I have to question how true it is. I can only imagine that the OP is wetting himself laughing at the furore it has created.

KINGSRULE

One says yes, others say no

If the light isn't on then it's not on.

So for me this thread is tainted big time until someone from the PDS gives us a definitive answer on the cars used during MJones's class......

alexb76

I don't wanna go back and forth... we disagree! NO ONE said 997 was WORSE than 996, did they? it was a MAJOR improvement in every way imabinable, EVEN IF it was very close in actual engineering (engine, body parts, etc...), it was significantly improved and basically as soon as it came out no one could WAIT to dump their 996 to get 997! This IS NOT THE CASE with 991...

Obviously you are more biased towards 991, since you bought one, so ofcourse if someone says anything negative about your car, it WILL bother you... but that doesn't change the facts.

As I said, the 991 appeals to some, while it doesn't to others, it's designed to appeal to a wider audience, BMW, Merc, Audi buyers, as well as more women, to have lower cost of production (share of component, electrical steering, etc), and specially to sell more in emerging markets, probably will sell a lot in China... for me, the best 911 to buy today is GTS, 991 has absolutely no major improvements over GTS to grant a premium (to me that is), you obviously disagree since you bought one... so congrats!