991 PSDS review
04-27-2012, 02:23 PM
#137
Rennlist Member
I am including my original post before I comment on the Sport button and PDK issues at the PSDS Master Plus course in the 991. The 991 did have the Sports button enabled and yes, the light did come on. In one 991 session, I shifted in manual mode and ran to the red line. The 991 was very fast accelerating out of Barber Turn 5 with the PDK. In a later session, I left the PDK in automatic mode. It did an outstanding job with the downshifts. My race-driver instructor prefers to manually downshift and then let the PDK upshift. He told me to "Sport up" when I drove the 991. At Barber, instructor-driven PDK cars usually run faster than the 6-speeds. Read my closing paragraph in the above quote to get to my bottom line.
04-27-2012, 11:05 PM
#138
And there you have what? If you ask me it sounds like there are too many unanswered questions why the 991 was unable to best a 997 manual on that day.
Did the instructors shed any light on it? Seems odd why a Porsche run event would allow a group of drivers to form an impression the new car was sub the outgoing car. Very strange. It also doesn't account for this:-
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...l-masters.html
Different event, different outcome. Funny how no one has offered comment on that. Equally strange.
It's as if the preferred viewpoint from all the naysayers prefer the negative rather than the positive.
Then there is the proclamation of a 6 speed member (930man) (who also posted youtube in 991) who claims to be an instructor driving amongst other drivers in the instructors group, in tracked prepped gt3's being rounded up by the new 991S in his hands.
Not saying the event where the 997.2 manual didn't beat the 991S pdk around the circuit in the hands of all and sundry didn't happen. But notwithstanding the official ring times set between the two cars, and the linked event i have attached, the reported outcome at MJ's event is very very strange indeed. No?
Did the instructors shed any light on it? Seems odd why a Porsche run event would allow a group of drivers to form an impression the new car was sub the outgoing car. Very strange. It also doesn't account for this:-
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...l-masters.html
Different event, different outcome. Funny how no one has offered comment on that. Equally strange.
It's as if the preferred viewpoint from all the naysayers prefer the negative rather than the positive.Then there is the proclamation of a 6 speed member (930man) (who also posted youtube in 991) who claims to be an instructor driving amongst other drivers in the instructors group, in tracked prepped gt3's being rounded up by the new 991S in his hands.
Not saying the event where the 997.2 manual didn't beat the 991S pdk around the circuit in the hands of all and sundry didn't happen. But notwithstanding the official ring times set between the two cars, and the linked event i have attached, the reported outcome at MJ's event is very very strange indeed. No?
04-27-2012, 11:30 PM
#139
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And there you have what? If you ask me it sounds like there are too many unanswered questions why the 991 was unable to best a 997 manual on that day.
Did the instructors shed any light on it? Seems odd why a Porsche run event would allow a group of drivers to form an impression the new car was sub the outgoing car. Very strange. It also doesn't account for this:-
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...l-masters.html
Different event, different outcome. Funny how no one has offered comment on that. Equally strange. It's as if the preferred viewpoint from all the naysayers prefer the negative rather than the positive.
Then there is the proclamation of a 6 speed member (930man) (who also posted youtube in 991) who claims to be an instructor driving amongst other drivers in the instructors group, in tracked prepped gt3's being rounded up by the new 991S in his hands.
Not saying the event where the 997.2 manual didn't beat the 991S pdk around the circuit in the hands of all and sundry didn't happen. But notwithstanding the official ring times set between the two cars, and the linked event i have attached, the reported outcome at MJ's event is very very strange indeed. No?
Did the instructors shed any light on it? Seems odd why a Porsche run event would allow a group of drivers to form an impression the new car was sub the outgoing car. Very strange. It also doesn't account for this:-
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...l-masters.html
Different event, different outcome. Funny how no one has offered comment on that. Equally strange.
It's as if the preferred viewpoint from all the naysayers prefer the negative rather than the positive.Then there is the proclamation of a 6 speed member (930man) (who also posted youtube in 991) who claims to be an instructor driving amongst other drivers in the instructors group, in tracked prepped gt3's being rounded up by the new 991S in his hands.
Not saying the event where the 997.2 manual didn't beat the 991S pdk around the circuit in the hands of all and sundry didn't happen. But notwithstanding the official ring times set between the two cars, and the linked event i have attached, the reported outcome at MJ's event is very very strange indeed. No?
I think Matt ran some 2:11's or so. 997 GT3's can run faster than that.
Especially if Matt was driving one.
04-28-2012, 12:31 AM
#140
Nordschleife Master
This could be debated for ever. End result is that the 997 is still capable of holding it's own against it's replacement and in many hands besting it. For many it also has the classic Porsche traits and personality which have largely been sanitized out of the new model in the opinion of many.
04-28-2012, 12:43 AM
#141
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This could be debated for ever. End result is that the 997 is still capable of holding it's own against it's replacement and in many hands besting it. For many it also has the classic Porsche traits and personality which have largely been sanitized out of the new model in the opinion of many.
Not only that, the 991 will not be measured by the performance of the 991S, I think we all know that. It will be measured by the Turbo, GT3 and GT2 and even moreso by the Cup and RSR versions which face stiffer competition than the 996 versions ever faced and that the 997 is getting blown away by.
Porsche had me with their concepts, longer wheelbase, wider body, less weight. I just hope they haven't spent all of their time developing these extra gadgets and left out the most functional necessary parts of handling.
The magazine tests, taken with however much salt, cannot be denied.
04-28-2012, 12:56 AM
#142
I did post the lap times from fastest lap website, you don't need to worry that 991S being slow, it is much faster than 997S and in some cases faster than Mercedes SLS, Ferrari 458 and 997 Turbo. Even Cayman R is faster than 997S in some tracks.
Now the question is who and how you drive it. I don't think any one can jump into the new car and set the fastest lap. Even F1 driver can't produce the fastest lap when they move to other race cars.
So at the end I am not question that 991S is faster than 997S. It is and Porsche needs it to be fast against rivals like R8, Aston, AMG, M3.
Now the question is who and how you drive it. I don't think any one can jump into the new car and set the fastest lap. Even F1 driver can't produce the fastest lap when they move to other race cars.
So at the end I am not question that 991S is faster than 997S. It is and Porsche needs it to be fast against rivals like R8, Aston, AMG, M3.
Last edited by iambon; 04-28-2012 at 01:17 AM.
04-28-2012, 01:29 AM
#143
Matt (930) man is a VIR veteran and one of the most talented Porsche drivers at the track. It makes complete sense that he passes up instructors in GT3's in a 991. But the really good drivers in GT3's he would not based on the times he was running. Instructor does not mean fast.
I think Matt ran some 2:11's or so. 997 GT3's can run faster than that.
Especially if Matt was driving one.
I think Matt ran some 2:11's or so. 997 GT3's can run faster than that.
Especially if Matt was driving one.
Btw if you are who i think you are (HC?) may i just say thanks for standing up for me against that holier than thou emotional d-bag who unjustly screwed me over for little more than exposing his sorry disrespectful *** to the porsche guys. Appreciate it. It was refreshing to see there were at least a few members that showed enough backbone instead of hiding in fear of banishment. And for the record, I was never warned, and the other tale happened well over two years ago, again for standing up against blatant BS which was later proven to be such. Similarly many members stood up for me and complained over what went down. Anyway just thought i'd mention that as i hate being railroaded and then blatantly lied about with no means of defence.
This could be debated for ever. End result is that the 997 is still capable of holding it's own against it's replacement and in many hands besting it. For many it also has the classic Porsche traits and personality which have largely been sanitized out of the new model in the opinion of many.
My own impression of the 991 left me with the feeling the car would be faster both on and off a track than any bread and butter 997 model (i.e. 997 997S) simply because of its sure footedness and obvious overall handling improvements. I was in manual not pdk though, although that said the PDK is claimed as the faster weapon which achieved the ring times. I've also previously owned and put in a lot of track time in my last 997S .1, which was modded and track prepped, so feel i am qualified to make the assertion the new car felt overall more competent than any 997/S.
When you start adding driver competence into the mix i would agree the better car isn't going to help the less skilled driver defeat an experienced driver. Ive seen experienced drivers in boxsters lap "good" drivers in GT3's so to say the 997 is still able to hold its own up against a 991 would only ever happen if the driver was more experienced in the lesser performing car.
That is an unreasonable assertion. This is only ONE test, will need a lot more with more information to draw any such conclusion. Especially with EVERY magazine test suggesting the opposite. I'll take real world as a far bigger measure, but the rest cannot be ignored.
Not only that, the 991 will not be measured by the performance of the 991S, I think we all know that. It will be measured by the Turbo, GT3 and GT2 and even moreso by the Cup and RSR versions which face stiffer competition than the 996 versions ever faced and that the 997 is getting blown away by.
Porsche had me with their concepts, longer wheelbase, wider body, less weight. I just hope they haven't spent all of their time developing these extra gadgets and left out the most functional necessary parts of handling.
The magazine tests, taken with however much salt, cannot be denied.
Not only that, the 991 will not be measured by the performance of the 991S, I think we all know that. It will be measured by the Turbo, GT3 and GT2 and even moreso by the Cup and RSR versions which face stiffer competition than the 996 versions ever faced and that the 997 is getting blown away by.
Porsche had me with their concepts, longer wheelbase, wider body, less weight. I just hope they haven't spent all of their time developing these extra gadgets and left out the most functional necessary parts of handling.
The magazine tests, taken with however much salt, cannot be denied.
04-28-2012, 01:46 AM
#144
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Thanks for validating 930man. From what he indicated over on 6 he has moved on to a 991S, even though his avatar shows a yellow 997GT3.2. Feels the new car is extremely competent vs the outgoing car. He chimed in on the basis the naysaying crowd were suggesting 991 was not better or faster. Agree a GT3 is a different animal and it takes a good driver to get the potential out of one. Most drivers would struggle to achieve better times without using PSM....it takes a very experienced driver to switch it off and safely manage a better lap time (as you would know). To have a group of drivers walk away getting a better lap time out of a 997 manual (not GT3) indicates something is not right. Least of all during a Porsche run event. Very strange indeed.
Btw if you are who i think you are (HC?) may i just say thanks for standing up for me against that holier than thou emotional d-bag who unjustly screwed me over for little more than exposing his sorry disrespectful *** to the porsche guys. Appreciate it. It was refreshing to see there were at least a few members that showed enough backbone instead of hiding in fear of banishment. And for the record, I was never warned, and the other tale happened well over two years ago, again for standing up against blatant BS which was later proven to be such. Similarly many members stood up for me and complained over what went down. Anyway just thought i'd mention that as i hate being railroaded and then blatantly lied about with no means of defence.
.
Btw if you are who i think you are (HC?) may i just say thanks for standing up for me against that holier than thou emotional d-bag who unjustly screwed me over for little more than exposing his sorry disrespectful *** to the porsche guys. Appreciate it. It was refreshing to see there were at least a few members that showed enough backbone instead of hiding in fear of banishment. And for the record, I was never warned, and the other tale happened well over two years ago, again for standing up against blatant BS which was later proven to be such. Similarly many members stood up for me and complained over what went down. Anyway just thought i'd mention that as i hate being railroaded and then blatantly lied about with no means of defence.
.
I wish more people had more backbone. Are you still banned?
I'm not a naysayer for the 991, I have the highest hopes for it. I'm more of an adventist for real engineering, meaning mechanical, not electrical. I think the 991 is the real deal, and some of the reaction from the 997 crowd is unjustified, but at the same time, I don't like the electronics direction that Porsche is taking.
I prefer not to have 10 electrical systems controlling everything while I'm driving. I would like to decipher if the 991 is faster because of these things (PDCC, PTV), which is why these types of real world tests mean a lot to me. If that is the case, I am not a fan.
I'm looking forward to owning a 991. As long as it's not PDK and doesn't have all that crap on it. Maybe they will make the Turbo a sports car again.
04-28-2012, 02:08 AM
#145
Then you can blaim EU for their emission law (now EU5 and soon to be EU6). This is part of the reason why Porsche and many other European car makers have changed to electric steering wheel. Of course it can be a cost saving for others but I don't think that a cost saving is the main reason why Porsche decided to put this on their flagship 991 not to mention the rest of 991 iterations that will follow including 991 GT3. It didn't hurt 991 sales.
Why Porsche needs to put many fuel saving features like start stop / coasting? Because their respondsibility to go along with EU law.
PDDC, it will not drive like 997GT3 but I consider that this is the great achievement for Porsche to make a faster car, better handling car. If PDDC really helps to make faster lap time then why not put it in 991S, or even in 991GT3. I would love to believe that it might become the standard equipment for 991GT3.
PDK, first of all I like the manual shift but I have chosen PDK because I also like paddle shifts (I am F1 fan). You can make many great things with PDK paddle shifts: down shift, engine break, lightening fast gear shift. What is defined "sport car" in our age is "manual shift" however for the new generation some will never have a chance to drive a manual car because of its availability. I might lose 80% of buyer when I want to sell manual car. If I am a racer, I would not care which shift system but give me the fastest one (we might see 991GT3 with PDK only option). Just my 2 cent
Why Porsche needs to put many fuel saving features like start stop / coasting? Because their respondsibility to go along with EU law.
PDDC, it will not drive like 997GT3 but I consider that this is the great achievement for Porsche to make a faster car, better handling car. If PDDC really helps to make faster lap time then why not put it in 991S, or even in 991GT3. I would love to believe that it might become the standard equipment for 991GT3.
PDK, first of all I like the manual shift but I have chosen PDK because I also like paddle shifts (I am F1 fan). You can make many great things with PDK paddle shifts: down shift, engine break, lightening fast gear shift. What is defined "sport car" in our age is "manual shift" however for the new generation some will never have a chance to drive a manual car because of its availability. I might lose 80% of buyer when I want to sell manual car. If I am a racer, I would not care which shift system but give me the fastest one (we might see 991GT3 with PDK only option). Just my 2 cent
Last edited by iambon; 04-28-2012 at 02:50 AM. Reason: Imfo add
04-28-2012, 02:52 AM
#146
Race Director
That is an unreasonable assertion. This is only ONE test, will need a lot more with more information to draw any such conclusion. Especially with EVERY magazine test suggesting the opposite. I'll take real world as a far bigger measure, but the rest cannot be ignored.
Not only that, the 991 will not be measured by the performance of the 991S, I think we all know that. It will be measured by the Turbo, GT3 and GT2 and even moreso by the Cup and RSR versions which face stiffer competition than the 996 versions ever faced and that the 997 is getting blown away by.
Porsche had me with their concepts, longer wheelbase, wider body, less weight. I just hope they haven't spent all of their time developing these extra gadgets and left out the most functional necessary parts of handling.
The magazine tests, taken with however much salt, cannot be denied.
Not only that, the 991 will not be measured by the performance of the 991S, I think we all know that. It will be measured by the Turbo, GT3 and GT2 and even moreso by the Cup and RSR versions which face stiffer competition than the 996 versions ever faced and that the 997 is getting blown away by.
Porsche had me with their concepts, longer wheelbase, wider body, less weight. I just hope they haven't spent all of their time developing these extra gadgets and left out the most functional necessary parts of handling.
The magazine tests, taken with however much salt, cannot be denied.
I'm not a naysayer for the 991, I have the highest hopes for it. I'm more of an adventist for real engineering, meaning mechanical, not electrical. I think the 991 is the real deal, and some of the reaction from the 997 crowd is unjustified, but at the same time, I don't like the electronics direction that Porsche is taking.
I prefer not to have 10 electrical systems controlling everything while I'm driving. I would like to decipher if the 991 is faster because of these things (PDCC, PTV), which is why these types of real world tests mean a lot to me. If that is the case, I am not a fan.
I'm looking forward to owning a 991. As long as it's not PDK and doesn't have all that crap on it. Maybe they will make the Turbo a sports car again.
I prefer not to have 10 electrical systems controlling everything while I'm driving. I would like to decipher if the 991 is faster because of these things (PDCC, PTV), which is why these types of real world tests mean a lot to me. If that is the case, I am not a fan.
I'm looking forward to owning a 991. As long as it's not PDK and doesn't have all that crap on it. Maybe they will make the Turbo a sports car again.
04-28-2012, 02:56 AM
#147
Yes, that's me, I thought your posts were very good actually and not even remotely close to deserving of banishment. The reasoning was lame as well. However I had not seen the other altercations so I could not speak to that.
I wish more people had more backbone. Are you still banned?
I'm not a naysayer for the 991, I have the highest hopes for it. I'm more of an adventist for real engineering, meaning mechanical, not electrical. I think the 991 is the real deal, and some of the reaction from the 997 crowd is unjustified, but at the same time, I don't like the electronics direction that Porsche is taking.
I prefer not to have 10 electrical systems controlling everything while I'm driving. I would like to decipher if the 991 is faster because of these things (PDCC, PTV), which is why these types of real world tests mean a lot to me. If that is the case, I am not a fan.
I'm looking forward to owning a 991. As long as it's not PDK and doesn't have all that crap on it. Maybe they will make the Turbo a sports car again.
I wish more people had more backbone. Are you still banned?
I'm not a naysayer for the 991, I have the highest hopes for it. I'm more of an adventist for real engineering, meaning mechanical, not electrical. I think the 991 is the real deal, and some of the reaction from the 997 crowd is unjustified, but at the same time, I don't like the electronics direction that Porsche is taking.
I prefer not to have 10 electrical systems controlling everything while I'm driving. I would like to decipher if the 991 is faster because of these things (PDCC, PTV), which is why these types of real world tests mean a lot to me. If that is the case, I am not a fan.
I'm looking forward to owning a 991. As long as it's not PDK and doesn't have all that crap on it. Maybe they will make the Turbo a sports car again.
) It's like dare anyone mention his beloved Gtr or the hand of god comes down with an allmighty thud. As you pointed out, his but buddy jasper swoops in all the time to take some preliminary swipes and once he winds up with his tail between his legs god stomps in asserting everyone has character defects, are snobs brand ******, non enthusiasts and.. so it goes... So yeah i guess If setting the record straight over their silly offensive nonsense is trouble then i guess I'm trouble....well to him and his mates anyway. Its laughable....and all on porsche forums/sections...whatever. Its just amazing how he gets away with it. Anyway ever since i posted up a 997TTS vs GTR thread which showed his pride and joy getting officially beaten he has had it in for me big time. He PM'd me calling me a big trouble maker for posting it up and went on one of his character assassination rampages asserting how in his infinite wisdom and judgement ability he has found the majority of porsche guys to be poseurs and snobs brand ****** non enthusiast ******* etc and the nissan guys all enthusiast heroes. Unbelievable! We engaged in a few heated pm discussions and ever since then he's been very quiet....too quiet infact..although i know he's been keeping a watch over his buddy with me. And then 10 months later boom! The hand of god comes down on me for speaking out against his outrageous remarks toward porsche guys. So yeah i guess I'm off for a bit over there. I mean i did call him out...and rightfully so. I mean someone had to do it. If anyone else had said what he had said toward others they would have been slammed. Unfair, but thats how he is....as i think you and most of the members know over there... and from what I've been told behind the scenes he hasn't fooled too many over his latest outburst. His justification on banning me was so flawed. Talk about someone clutching at straws. His credibility is in tatters.....and how they still allow him on in his position....amazing!
Sorry OP for going of topic there.
Re 991 i too can't see myself surrendering to PDK either. Thats one piece of technology i can personally live without...and look forward to see the GT line up along with TT, and hope to have my backside in one myself if it winds up being as good as they suggest. And on all the electrical systems i think so long as there is an OFF button then I'm fine. But so far they've always had an off button so thats a good sign.
04-28-2012, 04:24 AM
#148
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Thanks HC. Its good to know there are at least a few members that appreciate honesty instead of getting caught up in an *** kissing frenzy with sir god. Frankly how he gets away calling himself a mod is astonishing given his fervent attacks on members that mention the gtr. Talk about a conflict of interests having this guy preside over Porsche forums...wow! (oops, sorry...i mean "sections") It's like dare anyone mention his beloved Gtr or the hand of god comes down with an allmighty thud. As you pointed out, his but buddy jasper swoops in all the time to take some preliminary swipes and once he winds up with his tail between his legs god stomps in asserting everyone has character defects, are snobs brand ******, non enthusiasts and.. so it goes... So yeah i guess If setting the record straight over their silly offensive nonsense is trouble then i guess I'm trouble....well to him and his mates anyway. Its laughable....and all on porsche forums/sections...whatever. Its just amazing how he gets away with it.
Anyway ever since i posted up a 997TTS vs GTR thread which showed his pride and joy getting officially beaten he has had it in for me big time. He PM'd me calling me a big trouble maker for posting it up and went on one of his character assassination rampages asserting how in his infinite wisdom and judgement ability he has found the majority of porsche guys to be poseurs and snobs brand ****** non enthusiast ******* etc and the nissan guys all enthusiast heroes. Unbelievable! We engaged in a few heated pm discussions and ever since then he's been very quiet....too quiet infact..although i know he's been keeping a watch over his buddy with me. And then 10 months later boom! The hand of god comes down on me for speaking out against his outrageous remarks toward porsche guys. So yeah i guess I'm off for a bit over there. I mean i did call him out...and rightfully so. I mean someone had to do it. If anyone else had said what he had said toward others they would have been slammed. Unfair, but thats how he is....as i think you and most of the members know over there... and from what I've been told behind the scenes he hasn't fooled too many over his latest outburst. His justification on banning me was so flawed. Talk about someone clutching at straws. His credibility is in tatters.....and how they still allow him on in his position....amazing!
Sorry OP for going of topic there.
Re 991 i too can't see myself surrendering to PDK either. Thats one piece of technology i can personally live without...and look forward to see the GT line up along with TT, and hope to have my backside in one myself if it winds up being as good as they suggest. And on all the electrical systems i think so long as there is an OFF button then I'm fine. But so far they've always had an off button so thats a good sign.
) It's like dare anyone mention his beloved Gtr or the hand of god comes down with an allmighty thud. As you pointed out, his but buddy jasper swoops in all the time to take some preliminary swipes and once he winds up with his tail between his legs god stomps in asserting everyone has character defects, are snobs brand ******, non enthusiasts and.. so it goes... So yeah i guess If setting the record straight over their silly offensive nonsense is trouble then i guess I'm trouble....well to him and his mates anyway. Its laughable....and all on porsche forums/sections...whatever. Its just amazing how he gets away with it. Anyway ever since i posted up a 997TTS vs GTR thread which showed his pride and joy getting officially beaten he has had it in for me big time. He PM'd me calling me a big trouble maker for posting it up and went on one of his character assassination rampages asserting how in his infinite wisdom and judgement ability he has found the majority of porsche guys to be poseurs and snobs brand ****** non enthusiast ******* etc and the nissan guys all enthusiast heroes. Unbelievable! We engaged in a few heated pm discussions and ever since then he's been very quiet....too quiet infact..although i know he's been keeping a watch over his buddy with me. And then 10 months later boom! The hand of god comes down on me for speaking out against his outrageous remarks toward porsche guys. So yeah i guess I'm off for a bit over there. I mean i did call him out...and rightfully so. I mean someone had to do it. If anyone else had said what he had said toward others they would have been slammed. Unfair, but thats how he is....as i think you and most of the members know over there... and from what I've been told behind the scenes he hasn't fooled too many over his latest outburst. His justification on banning me was so flawed. Talk about someone clutching at straws. His credibility is in tatters.....and how they still allow him on in his position....amazing!
Sorry OP for going of topic there.
Re 991 i too can't see myself surrendering to PDK either. Thats one piece of technology i can personally live without...and look forward to see the GT line up along with TT, and hope to have my backside in one myself if it winds up being as good as they suggest. And on all the electrical systems i think so long as there is an OFF button then I'm fine. But so far they've always had an off button so thats a good sign.
Sending PM.
04-29-2012, 10:37 PM
#149
Nordschleife Master
My point is very simply that the 997 is capable of besting the 991 depending on drver and any given set of variables on any given day. One of those days is the subject of MJs thread now being discussed.
Overall all things equal I wouldn't expect Porsche to launch a new 911 with lower performance threshold.
Overall all things equal I wouldn't expect Porsche to launch a new 911 with lower performance threshold.
04-29-2012, 10:42 PM
#150
My point is very simply that the 997 is capable of besting the 991 depending on drver and any given set of variables on any given day. One of those days is the subject of MJs thread now being discussed.
Overall all things equal I wouldn't expect Porsche to launch a new 911 with lower performance threshold.
Overall all things equal I wouldn't expect Porsche to launch a new 911 with lower performance threshold.
I've seen this many times.
And on your later comment. Totally agree.