Papa Fittig

Thank you for the input and I hope it works well for you and the issue is resolved. However, before I go and buy the AG battery I want them to confirm that the issue has been fully resolved. If it is in predominant majority of cases, but not 100% it won't work for me. We have other choices which do not cause electronics of the car to report the failures due to the battery regulating to lower charging voltage i.e. being the root cause of the issues.

Wolpertinger

Yeah, I get it for sure. The battery isn't cheap, and neither is the car it's going into!

Jim991

I will be installing the AG battery next week. I don't intend to recode for it. Will report back after the install.

Antigravity

Here are my responses...

1. 13.7v is fine, but not optimal, as 14.4v+ is what you like. If the car is not on a track or is on a track is irrelevant. The limit of the charge to 13.7v is a concern with additional consumption load. So what is the minimal voltage an alternator has to produce to successfully charge your battery? Anything above 13v should do, isn't it?
Any battery requires that it be charged beyond its nominal/resting voltage to be fully and deeply charged. It not just any amount above its resting voltage, which in our batteries is 13.2v resting. So even for a Lead Acid battery they want to see 14.4v and above. But we also have some older BMWs and collectors cars that never charge above 13.8v and they work fine, but does that mean they will have achieved as deep of a charge as a battery at 14.4v? No they have not. Will this make a dramatic difference in anything... most likely not because how long the car sits in storage whether a few or several days extra can be irrelevant because it depends on when the person eventually drives the car again, and this only comes into play in very long term storage over a about 6 weeks of not driving. I totally understand you concerns to have a hard answer, I am not being facetious when I say it really doesn't matter... because there is a standardized 12v charging profile across the Industry in all 12v vehicles. If you are outside that charging rate then something is wrong with the vehicle not the battery. If you car is functioning within those parameters our batteries will work.

2. Porsche does not recommend to use their lithium battery beyond track use. However you are saying the AG battery is fine. Any idea why they would not?
As for not going above 13.7v charging and offering it only for race/track use. They are conservative, and 13.7 is actually better for sustained high RPM use where you don't want any drag on the Motor from the alternator charging excessively when it doesn't need it. But their battery was complete junk with a 70% failure rate, and it had way to much self discharge so we draining itself to dead often, and the BMS would fail. So I don't know if that was part of why the said only for track. But the bottom line is our product is just so much better than what they were offering and have better protections across the board. Last, heck yes I'm saying our battery works in most everything from race to passenger Cars.... This thread is the ANOMALY actually... and it fine to be here, we are fine answering questions and concerns. But we are already installed in thousands of cars with this Wireless RE-START Battery... not to mention over 100,000 of our Powersports Batteries... We also started the mini Lithium Jump starter market back in 2013 with the MICRo-START and we got BEST RATED JUMP STARTER by Consumer Reports for our XP-10 over 14 other brands.... So we do actually know what we are doing.

3. I appreciate your thinking of making your battery to be plug-n-play with no need to change any settings. However, in some (small) number of cases the AG battery is causing system malfunction throwing codes. It is annoying to say the least and somewhat worrisome. I am driving 991.1 TTS and will need a new battery soon. How do I know that the AG battery will not cause the type of issues the OP experienced. I admit I do not have his qualities required to live on with this type of issues. Any suggestions on how do ppl like me proceed with AG batteries in 991.1 cars?

Well, depends on how you look at this. You stated you "appreciate I'm "trying" to make the battery plug and play....." . Well from my perspective you are jumping to the conclusion the problem lies with our Batteries, but if you look at it from my fact-based perspective, in most all cases I"m saying PORSCHE is causing the problems, not our battery . Pretty bold statement huh? Well it actually holds true. Our battery was designed per the CORRECT Charging standards across the ENTIRE Automotive Industry. So we built our "Battery Management System (BMS)" protections to prevent OVER-CHARGE to our Lithium pack to make them ultra safe, and not be able to be damaged by a faulty system. Now add to that the the Lead/Acid Battery Industry, as well as the best practices in charging systems for Automobiles, says NEVER to charge your Lead/Acid Batteries above 15v also. So the fact is we are doing it all correctly... BUT of all Cars we test in, and the THOUSANDS of Car we are in successfully..... we see one Car Brand that throws flags during the winter time, Porsche. And why do those flags occur, because the Porsche is charging ABOVE the known limit of 15v and our BMS is knocking down those pesky over-voltage spikes. So the car sees our protections kicking in, and throws a flag because our BMS is interfering with the voltage reading coming into the battery to protect itself. So the Porsche Charging is the problem. I could also state "how come the other Car Brands are not going over 15v during the Winter?" We are perfectly fine in most every other Car brand. Also note this is a rare issue in Porsches even.... so why are some of those cars having this weirdness? While these are facts, I'm actually trying to be silly and just point out that it is NOT a problem with our battery, it works fine. It just a circumstance where our safety programming butted heads with Porsches odd system of going over 15v when charging sometimes, which it absolutely does not need to do. But the bottom line is WE had to make the adjustments because Porsche definitely won't, they probably aren't even aware of it and wouldn't care. Last I want to state that going over 15v as the Porsche does won't hurt your lead/acid battery really either, it just an odd anomaly. So we corrected it, but it not accurate to say our Battery is at fault by any means. So you see there are two side to the story.

Last just want to say thanks for the interest and I'm stoked your interested, but maybe wait it out. We are not here to push you into a sale. If you take one look at the number of flags and issues with normal Lead/acid Batteries and Porsches on this forum you would start to see this is not a problem with Lithium, the cars are very sensitive to voltage issues, and we see several threads a week about this all over this form since we are notified of keywords.... We have a lot of these Batteries in TTs you might want to ask over in that forum area.

Al.Fresco

Regarding your last point above....it seems to be Porsche’s in cold weather (some at least) when paired with your battery that is the issue. As you may recall, I had issues with your restart throwing codes in the winter due to charging rates in excess of 15 volts (in fact exceeding 16v at times), and you guys were great trying to trouble shoot it and eventually took the battery back and gave me a full refund. That said, with a new lead acid installed after that issue, the car has never seen charging volts that high again (via your battery tracker) during winter or any time. So it was something in your battery that was making my Porsche think it needed the higher volts to charge it. For me, that makes it hard to place blame solely on Porsche. And I had the issues before, and also after, I had the dealership code mine to the lithium battery setting while we were troubleshooting, as you may recall.

I do hope you have since nailed it, because I really like the restart concept of your batteries, and again, even with my issues, you guys were great to deal with.

Papa Fittig

My understanding is internal resistance of Li batteries is about 2x or more of lead acid ones. Also overcharge tolerance of Li batteries is very low vs others. Not sure how AG compares to others wrt load current or what voltage regulation is used. Perhaps battery temperature during charging cycle makes a difference too. All above is my speculations.

Papa Fittig

Thanks. and although I truly appreciate you staying behind your products and feel you did your best to troubleshoot it, I am not convinced it is 100% Porsche issue. I am on my 4th 911 and had some of them for years. I have not seen any voltage battery related issues whatsoever with quite a few battery replacements..

​​​​​​​I feel like until you explicitly say you have understood and 100% resolved the issue being it yours or not, I will follow your advice and wait it out.

Antigravity

A couple points here.

1- Unfortunately you had this issue, the good thing is we did exactly as we say we will do on any purchase from us, and we gave a full refund and paid shipping back to us, and we also took immediate action to see what was exactly causing the issue then changed the BMS Battery Management Systems programming to resolve the issue.We never even anticipated this issue and we even tested through the winter the year before they came out with out this issue raising its head. But the fact is we can safely assume a few other Car Models and Brands must be using the same components or perhaps charging profiles in their cars so we wanted to make sure this was not a problem in any brand in the future and changed some things to allow for higher charging rates just in case we found another car doing this.

2- In terms of you thinking the Battery was doing something to cause your flags. Sort of yes and no.. As I said earlier, it was the incompatibility of the systems. The battery was not doing anything but what is was programmed to do, which is not faulty or wrong on any level. This is how it works.... if your charging system in the car is putting out above 15v our battery's protections kick in for safety. The protections operate by clipping the voltage off thousands of times per second, it does not just completely shut off the battery, but clips it the voltage coming in to it, but the IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor) of your Car is also monitoring the voltage 1000s of times per second. So if it is seeing the voltage clipping it is assuming the voltage is low, because it sees the voltage going down at the battery due to this protective voltage clipping. So then the Car thinks it needs to put out more voltage because the cars system is thinking the voltage is low because it sees the odd clipping-off of the voltage.... So it becomes a revolving cycle of the batteries protections kicking in and the Cars system thinking something funky is going on and raising the voltage to compensate, or keep it programmed raised voltage above 15v. This in turns also causes flags because it see the voltage oddities at the battery due to the protections clipping. So if the car wasn't going above 15v then it wouldn't see the anomaly of the protections doing the voltage clipping. So yes I blame it on Porsche completely! Of course I'm just being an facetious again, but this isn't a blame game.... it a "fix it and move on...." thing, which we have done.

3- Also, of the few batteries returned to us.... they go in other cars and work perfectly fine.... so that is one of the reasons you hear my jokingly say its PORSCHE'S problem not our batteries, because we give them to our sponsored drivers, or out for Magazines to test and do a write up on, and they work fine. Anyway the bottom line is I"m not really blaming Porsche or anything.... it an issues we found due to some Customer reaching out to us which is great because our testing never revealed it so we have progressed and became aware of an odd, but important issue which made the product even more compatible for the future.

Antigravity

Yes, those are speculations...not quite accurate, but that is for another time...

Papa, you statement is perfectly fine by me. From my perspective, I would never claim 100% resolving the issue because there is no such thing honestly.... For example, you might have an alternator that puts out 16v at some point.... so is our battery at fault for its protections kicking in to stop your systems problem of going well above what is known as the industry standard? No, it wouldn't be and shouldn't be because you have a system going outside the norm. Should we tell Porsche we want a 100% guarantee their charging system will never go over 15v? No, because only some of their cars are doing this, so there is some anomaly there, and maybe there is some method to their system as well. My point being there is no WRONG here on either side really, just incompatibility. So I have no way to say there is some 100% compatibility on anything, and never will. While I'm sorry it was irritating for a few Customer for it not to work well for them, the fact is it works in 99% of the Cars perfectly fine, and we changed the programming to fix it to the best of our current knowledge.

Our intention is not to force or push for any sales, but relay the facts. My issue personally with this thread has been it seemingly portrayed the product as not working due to some "problem" with the battery when that is not the case at all. So as per internet fashion, this has become more than it actually is. The battery just worked within its parameters and when a few Porsches went over 15v it kicked in its protections creating and incompatibility. Also note these same batteries worked fine installed in other cars that used the same battery we got returned to us. I know of one in particular that was in an Toyota FJ Cruiser and sitting outside in 5 degree temps over night... no problems at all. So this is business and putting yourself out there as a company on the internet. So we will keep answering with the facts as we know them and in a year have that much more data of going through another winter to see if the parameter setting changes cured this issue completely, while knowing in theory and some fact they did.

Papa Fittig

Thank you..
Here goes a table I found along the lines outlining the battery type differences i was talking about. I am sure you are well aware of


What you call "incompatibility" issue could be in two different areas - electrical and electronic regulation management systems. I am sure electrical part is fine, so it is your battery management system not complying to Porsche battery charging management system's expectations.
I hope you will figure it out once you get more data over the winter and publish the status update.

Antigravity

Papa, no disrespect, but I clearly explained the issue, but from your statement above you have created your own narrative that I can't continue debating since there is no issue at this point in time.We have taken care of the very few people that had any issue, and corrected the problem. That all there is to it. There is no one to update, there is nothing to "figure out", and I won't be updating this thread since there is nothing and no one to update at this point. If another person has an issue down the line then we will assist them as we did the others. But I can't keep going round and round with an issue that was resolved already.

Papa Fittig

No disrespect either. I just come from the world of hi-tech multi $M equipment. In that world even an intermittent issue occurring extremely rare can't be written off till 100% understood, explained in details and my customer has full confidence that it won't happen for same reason again. Therefore there is a drive to resolve it even if the root cause for the issue was on a customer automation / integration / communications or whatever side.

Having said this, I trust you have reasonable prove the issue has been resolved.

Thank you.

Jim991

Installed the AG battery without recoding. Threw a fault but of to drive after about thirty minutes. I drove it for a couple of days and the CEL went off. I think the car was adjusting the battery. CEL has not come back on.

F1SML8R

I'm seeing a patter here. It appears that if you have a 991.1 and install without a recode, you get the temporary error message that promptly goes away after a few minutes of driving. On the flip-side, if you install without a recode on a 991.2 (like mine), everything is fine. Either way, seems like the recode is really just a way for the service department to get a few extra bucks out of you.

Need4S

Maybe on some. But I have a 991.1, did not re-code, and got no error messages at all. Everything ran fine right away and has since doing this months ago.