Numb Steering?
08-19-2018, 04:44 PM
#61
545 steering
Man I just dont get it. I have a 545 sport (E60)which has the staggered wheel set up and the steering is best of any of the 50 some odd cars I have owned. It's a 2005 so perhaps the new systems have changed. ? Also I know the car does not pipe fake motor noise through the speakers (which apparently newer BMW's and Fords do and is a deal breaker for me). I hate anything fake.
I just came from a 2016 BMW i8 in my 2018 Carrera 4 GTS.
I’ll never complain about numb steering in a Porsche.
BMW is the master of numb steering.
Since most manufacturers are using electric steering, you are going to experience a slight disconnect from the road. However, Porsche is probably the very best at making their system feel right.
I’ll never complain about numb steering in a Porsche.
BMW is the master of numb steering.
Since most manufacturers are using electric steering, you are going to experience a slight disconnect from the road. However, Porsche is probably the very best at making their system feel right.
08-19-2018, 04:50 PM
#62
So can I expect no feedback when the road turns slippery during winter driving? Haven’t tried that yet.
08-19-2018, 08:59 PM
#63
It's not dangerous. It's just that the wheel feels like it isn't connected to anything and the front wheels are turned based on an angle sensor in the steering column. I know the wheel is technically attached to the rack. It just doesn't feel like it.
08-19-2018, 09:19 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
As most have gone to electric steering, many car manufacturers have struggled to remain the feel. Porsche has made the strongest effort and done a surprisingly good job, all things considered.
I still greatly respect BMW. Not slamming them. I owned three, prior to getting the Carrera 4 GTS. The i8 was the worst, when it comes to feel. Just like driving a car on PlayStation.
I still greatly respect BMW. Not slamming them. I owned three, prior to getting the Carrera 4 GTS. The i8 was the worst, when it comes to feel. Just like driving a car on PlayStation.
Man I just dont get it. I have a 545 sport (E60)which has the staggered wheel set up and the steering is best of any of the 50 some odd cars I have owned. It's a 2005 so perhaps the new systems have changed. ? Also I know the car does not pipe fake motor noise through the speakers (which apparently newer BMW's and Fords do and is a deal breaker for me). I hate anything fake.
08-20-2018, 12:54 PM
#65
BMW switched to electric steering around 2012(?). Test driving an F80 M3, the first thing I noticed was how disconnected the steering felt compared to the E90. It was a real letdown and is what led me to consider Porsche at the time. FWIW, I also agree that driving a 997 and 991 back to back, the 991 steering is noticeably more numb. I'm no race car driver and even I can feel it, but you get used to the 991 and it feels pretty damn good. Not like the newer BMWs. I still own a BMW and when I get a new model loaner car, the steering feel always makes me a little sad. I hear the M2 steering is more direct but I am skeptical because I have yet to drive a modern BMW that feels as good as the older ones.
08-20-2018, 12:58 PM
#66
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I drove a M2 and it is the best of the current BMWs in regards to feel, which is far from numb by any means.
08-20-2018, 01:07 PM
#67
Instructor
My 2007 335i (E90) produces tons of good information and juicy feeling from its hydraulic system.
Steering feel is the sole reason my wife and I still keep it around as a beater.
Both my 911 and her Macan are inferior in this respect.
Steering feel is the sole reason my wife and I still keep it around as a beater.
Both my 911 and her Macan are inferior in this respect.
08-20-2018, 01:12 PM
#68
Originally Posted by Bob Z.
I drove a M2 and it is the best of the current BMWs in regards to feel, which is far from numb by any means.
I wish we could retrofit the 997 steering rack into the 991s. That would just about make it a perfect car.
Alas, we relive in a world of constant automotive trade-offs...
08-24-2018, 03:12 PM
#69
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Come drive my 1972 911 and It'll make your assisted rack feel like a dead fish ;-) That's not my point, here I was comparing apples to apples, 997/991 or 991 to other modern sports cars... As far as modern cars go, the 991 feels pretty good to me. When I want to feel every pebble on the road and work on my shoulder muscles I take out my 72 911 or 73 2002 ;-) It's all a matter of degree I guess... I would agree with you in general that hydraulic > electric, but not to the extent magazines have bashed it... I still recall my 993 assisted steering felt like CRAP to me coming from a non assisted SC... there's some driver calibration there as well, for sure !
08-24-2018, 03:18 PM
#70
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
For better steering feel without an mpg nor parasitic power penalty, Porsche needs to do what McLaren does (and what Porsche does on all of its own 911 race cars):
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
08-24-2018, 04:09 PM
#71
Three Wheelin'
There's a lot of technical reasons why the electric steering feels numb. However, those that vouch for the hydraulic feel couldn't care less on why the new generation feels so disconnected. All we know it is a cockup and want the old connected steering feel. On a sports car, there is only 3 points of input to the driver as to what is going on. The 2 hands and the butt on the seat. In that realm, the hands give you more information and it is taken away now.
08-24-2018, 04:20 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
For better steering feel without an mpg nor parasitic power penalty, Porsche needs to do what McLaren does (and what Porsche does on all of its own 911 race cars):
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
That said, it probably feels better.
08-24-2018, 06:06 PM
#73
Instructor
For better steering feel without an mpg nor parasitic power penalty, Porsche needs to do what McLaren does (and what Porsche does on all of its own 911 race cars):
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
Hydraulic steering with the pump driven by an electric motor (rather than traditional way of running it from a belt attached to the crankshaft)
Porsche reserves this for their race cars, because it costs slightly more to implement than EPS and may not integrate as easily with rear wheel steering and other systems not used/needed in a race car nor focused sports car
08-24-2018, 06:14 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Compared to other hydraulic power steering cars I thought my 2014 981S with PASM and PTV was good. My 991T is far better.
Unfortunatly they all pale to when I get in my 944 with power steering. I can feel every pebble and ridge in the road even with “only” 16” wheels.
Unfortunatly they all pale to when I get in my 944 with power steering. I can feel every pebble and ridge in the road even with “only” 16” wheels.
08-24-2018, 07:24 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Keep in mind awd vs rwd, power steering plus, and rear axle steering all affect steering feel. A lot. A rwd with no power steering plus is very nice IMHO. RAS makes it lighter and more responsive but still communicative, you dont get artificial weighting like you do with steering assist. This is the setup i liked the best. Also there is a noticeable difference .1 vs .2.