Carrera T Driving Review
07-17-2018, 12:00 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Of course talking about which is faster is kinda silly... they'll all really fast and response/feel is more critical at this point. I was going to get a base or T - its a great engine. S is more or less the same, with only a hint of more high end boost (16-17 for a split second instead of stopping at 13 on base/T), but I don't think it feels any different (or any more 'NA like' as auto journalists claim). The base/T and S have pretty much the same turbos, but the base/T is de-tuned to be slower. De-tuned simply means the turbos don't boost as high, which happens mid to higher RPMs. If you rev them both low to mid, its very difficult to tell the difference, but the S has 50 more torque in that range assuming you're using all the boost (pedal floored and enough time for turbos to spool to 100%). I guess the difference is best described is the base is more 'tame' and doesn't peak as much, which many would associate with slower/less fun, but when the cars are already so quick, it may be a comfort thing. A MT car is obviously going to be slower and drive differently than a PDK car and that difference alone will make one faster than the other. I personally like the turbo power as a daily driver and don't miss the NA much...give me more boost, but no lag!
I don't think GTS is 'in a different category.' In the same way the base compares to S, the GTS has bigger turbos and more boost at peaks than the S. The GTS has 50 more torque throughout the mid range. I haven't driven one, but doubt it has more lag due to bigger turbos...however that's possible if its like other cars (small turbos spool faster and a bigger engine hides the lag). Comparing how a GTS rides back to back to a T/base would be a good test. Both have the same engine, but GTS is a heck of a lot more boosted power.
IMO, sports chrono and PDK is what really makes these cars crazy fast. Launch control is how you get ~3 seconds 0-60. No idea about other model, but my C4S will do this without a sweat even going up slight grade...fast enough to make your stomach turn and head planted to the seat...the 0-60 time difference between 3.0 (GTS), 3.2 (S), 3.4 (Base/T), or even GT3 (tested 2.8 to 3.2) using launch control moot. I don't really use it in normal driving and the reality is its a really responsive high torque engine whether its a T or S or GTS. I think the Porsche spec published is more realistic without launch control (~4.5 for base, ~4 sec for T/ S, ~3.5 for GTS, and ~3 for GT3). I think Porsche did good in this generation's model lineup and its hard to go wrong.
I don't think GTS is 'in a different category.' In the same way the base compares to S, the GTS has bigger turbos and more boost at peaks than the S. The GTS has 50 more torque throughout the mid range. I haven't driven one, but doubt it has more lag due to bigger turbos...however that's possible if its like other cars (small turbos spool faster and a bigger engine hides the lag). Comparing how a GTS rides back to back to a T/base would be a good test. Both have the same engine, but GTS is a heck of a lot more boosted power.
IMO, sports chrono and PDK is what really makes these cars crazy fast. Launch control is how you get ~3 seconds 0-60. No idea about other model, but my C4S will do this without a sweat even going up slight grade...fast enough to make your stomach turn and head planted to the seat...the 0-60 time difference between 3.0 (GTS), 3.2 (S), 3.4 (Base/T), or even GT3 (tested 2.8 to 3.2) using launch control moot. I don't really use it in normal driving and the reality is its a really responsive high torque engine whether its a T or S or GTS. I think the Porsche spec published is more realistic without launch control (~4.5 for base, ~4 sec for T/ S, ~3.5 for GTS, and ~3 for GT3). I think Porsche did good in this generation's model lineup and its hard to go wrong.
07-17-2018, 12:38 PM
#17
I really don't think its that special...the Touring is more of a packaged bundle/ trim for someone who can't afford a loaded S or GTS, but wants sport PASM and rear steering. It makes a lot of sense with a manual, bucket seats, and limited to no options (other than rear steering, which is a huge deal/ must have after experiencing it). The T is great for the buyer who is the type who can't afford loading up an S model with options, but wants some them on a base. Stability of AWD and S power / handling bits gets my pick any day...a loaded GTS or S model is still the better car, especially if you plan to drive it daily. I'm sure many order a loaded T and over pay at nearly 150k instead of an C4S/GTS4 and that's something I'll never understand...heck I think that a loaded CPO S is a heck of a deal compared to a new T.
I currently own a 2017 (loaded) Carrera S with PDK. It's the 3rd 911 I've owned, and personally, I wanted to get back to a more "driver focused" manual transmission for a more engaging driving experience. The PDK transmission is a spectacular transmission, but for me, it takes the "driving engagement" out of what having a sports car like this is all about.
I've had the chance to drive a manual T back to back with a manual Carrera and there is a definite difference in the way the 2 cars drive.
I have a T on order for delivery in September - not because I can't afford the S, but because I like what the T has to offer in "driver engagement" and outright "fun" much more than what I have with the S.
07-17-2018, 12:38 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
To each his own I guess. I have driven really "fast" cars that frankly put me to sleep. Most of them have had PDK or automatics. I have also driven much slower cars that were a ton more exciting. I drove the base, T, S, etc and the T felt the best. The PDK S I drove felt like an Olds compared to my 981CS. Could care less about times.
As far as numbers and bench racing, I am done with it all. Launch control is nothing other than a marketing tool to make magazine numbers look better. It is useless on a road coarse, and I would argue that there are close to zero legal/ethical places you can use it on the street.
If Porsches had more of a drag racing purpose in life, it would make sense since at least at the strip it is useful.
As far as numbers and bench racing, I am done with it all. Launch control is nothing other than a marketing tool to make magazine numbers look better. It is useless on a road coarse, and I would argue that there are close to zero legal/ethical places you can use it on the street.
If Porsches had more of a drag racing purpose in life, it would make sense since at least at the strip it is useful.
07-17-2018, 01:37 PM
#19
I think if most people are given an unlimited budget, they'll buy the most expensive and fastest car and not the lower trim with less options. I'm sure some people buy a T just because they want it because when I was shopping people were paying more than MSRP and loading them up with options.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
07-17-2018, 02:18 PM
#20
I ordered a T. I could have ordered a S I suppose but the packaging of the T appealed to me a bit more. I didn't inquire about a GTS although I've heard that allocations are very slim to none, and closer to the pricing of a GT3. I would have ordered a GT3 (likely Touring) if allocation was available and without a markup. They're all fantastic cars and you cant go wrong with any of them.
Having said that I didn't want to spend the money on a GTS, or even an S w/ power pack when a GT3 would have been close in price compared to a decked out GTS. But would a GT3 have been a mistake for me? Perhaps, as I had a 997.3 GT3 for a short few months back in 2012. I found that car to be way too focused as a track car to enjoy on the streets and back roads where I live. I've heard that the 991.2 GT3 is a more versatile model but I didn't try all that hard to procure an allocation based on the experience I had with my 997.2.
So what does the T represent for me and why was I attracted to the model? Since I sold my GT3 back in 2012 I ordered a M4, chose not to take delivery, bought and sold two Boss 302's (one was an LS) and two GT350's (the engine seized in the first one) What these cars do is chase horse power and what I've found out about myself is that I just don't use most of the power that these cars had. Fit/finish, paint quality etc was seriously lacking on the GT350's as well.
I'm tired of chasing horsepower and this time around I wanted a well rounded car that is a great DD with more than enough power to have fun with on back roads, weekend road trips, compliant suspension for the frost heaved twisties etc. The perfect model for me appears to be the T. Hopefully it'll do everything I want it to without spending more money on the very high levels of performance that I simply don't use all that much. The T is a base 911 with some performance parts. That is what most of us will ever need if we were all being honest with ourselves. If you frequent track days then a GT3 is what you should get. For me I just hung up my leathers after attending and instructing sport bike track days for 12 straight years. Maybe I'll get into doing cars days in the future, but for now the T fits the bill.
Having said that I didn't want to spend the money on a GTS, or even an S w/ power pack when a GT3 would have been close in price compared to a decked out GTS. But would a GT3 have been a mistake for me? Perhaps, as I had a 997.3 GT3 for a short few months back in 2012. I found that car to be way too focused as a track car to enjoy on the streets and back roads where I live. I've heard that the 991.2 GT3 is a more versatile model but I didn't try all that hard to procure an allocation based on the experience I had with my 997.2.
So what does the T represent for me and why was I attracted to the model? Since I sold my GT3 back in 2012 I ordered a M4, chose not to take delivery, bought and sold two Boss 302's (one was an LS) and two GT350's (the engine seized in the first one) What these cars do is chase horse power and what I've found out about myself is that I just don't use most of the power that these cars had. Fit/finish, paint quality etc was seriously lacking on the GT350's as well.
I'm tired of chasing horsepower and this time around I wanted a well rounded car that is a great DD with more than enough power to have fun with on back roads, weekend road trips, compliant suspension for the frost heaved twisties etc. The perfect model for me appears to be the T. Hopefully it'll do everything I want it to without spending more money on the very high levels of performance that I simply don't use all that much. The T is a base 911 with some performance parts. That is what most of us will ever need if we were all being honest with ourselves. If you frequent track days then a GT3 is what you should get. For me I just hung up my leathers after attending and instructing sport bike track days for 12 straight years. Maybe I'll get into doing cars days in the future, but for now the T fits the bill.
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masti99 (01-16-2020)
07-17-2018, 02:25 PM
#21
I think if most people are given an unlimited budget, they'll buy the most expensive and fastest car and not the lower trim with less options. I'm sure some people buy a T just because they want it because when I was shopping people were paying more than MSRP and loading them up with options.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
I think some of you guys paint the decisions of others with too broad a brush.
I can easily afford an S, a GTS, a GT3 or anything else for that matter that I want. I'm far past the "show off" look how big my .... is stage of my life. I don't have to prove anything to anyone - more importantly I don't owe anyone anything.
I have been a long time Porsche fan, (I'm currently the owner of a 2017 911 Carrera S - my 3rd 911) however, I have never been interested in tracking any car that I've ever owned. I don't need or want a car that I have to worry about where I park it or what attention it's going to draw. I enjoy how a 911 drives and the engineering and detail that go into making these cars - just right. As far as the Miata comment - sorry but a Miata doesn't even come close to the driving experience a 911 provides. That comment just doesn't make any sense.
The Carrera T provides many options that the base Carrera doesn't - RWS, different suspension, different gear-box, and because of that, whether you care to believe it or not, does provide a different experience over the base Carrera with the icing being that it's currently a bit of an out-lier and different from most of the 911's you see every day on the road.
As far as the T being a slower car - .5 or .6 of a second when you are never going to track it isn't an issue - Being concerned about a half of a second to 60, to me, along with a launch mode on the PDK that I'm never going to use on the streets is more of a marketing gimmick to some, but for those that want that Porsche provides it. That's the value of Porsche offering 23 different 911 models. We can all each make choices that fit what we want in a car and still have the 911 we personally want for how we intend to drive it. It has absolutely nothing to do with what some of us can afford!
I'm buying a T loaded with the options that I want because I believe it will be the perfect car for how I intend to drive it.
07-17-2018, 02:38 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by minthral
I think if most people are given an unlimited budget, they'll buy the most expensive and fastest car and not the lower trim with less options. I'm sure some people buy a T just because they want it because when I was shopping people were paying more than MSRP and loading them up with options.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
The T is a great car for someone who likes manual transmissions because it has shorter gears (which ironically make it faster), but saying there is a substantial difference in driving a T and that it's a really special car "that is more driver focused" than a base model is just eating up marketing IMHO. You'd have just as much fun in a (slower) base stripped out car if you aren't concerned about going fast. In the same logic, might as well get a Miata. Even a convertible is a much more raw experience.
To each his own I guess, but IMO, the benefits of a modern 911 is it's ability to handle well, go really fast, and be practical for every day use. That's why most people buy a Porsche and higher tier models with more options are typically more desirable. I know there are people who intentionally buy the slower car with no leather base sound system, MT and etc, but I'm sure that's very rare. If there was a poll, I bet most on this forum bought an S GTS or for those whom "money isn't a concern" are getting GT3s or TTS...not a T.
BTW the price of my T is well into GTS territory. But I wanted the T, not the GTS, or the S, or the GT3. Yes, a friend asked me if I wanted his allocation and turned it down. I'm not a flipper and had no intention of daily driving a GT3. I DD my Carrera T and love it.
The reason you buy a T are:
A) Want the least amount of turbo lag and a more linear acceleration.
B) Prefer a manual transmission
C) Want options not available on the Base (RAS, SPASM, PTV, Limited Slip Diff, LWB, etc)
D) Want the performance options bundled: Sport Chrono, PSE, LSD, PTV, SPASM)
E) Prefer a unique styling inside and out (Carrera T-Interior, external Agate Gray parts, front lip spoiler, Sport Mirrors, Light Weight Glass as it is noticeably clearer, etc).
F) Want a more special vehicle, and looking at VIN numbers it seems like the T will be more rare than the GT3 and even GT2RS!
G) Want the most fun 911 around!
07-17-2018, 02:45 PM
#23
Chrono Package
- Analog and digital chronograph - a chronometer installed on top of the dashboard can be used for timing laps, and can be configured as a clock when not actively used as a stopwatch.
- Porsche Track Precision App functionality (may not be compatible with all mobile devices or service providers)
07-17-2018, 03:22 PM
#25
I ordered a T. I could have ordered a S I suppose but the packaging of the T appealed to me a bit more. I didn't inquire about a GTS although I've heard that allocations are very slim to none, and closer to the pricing of a GT3. I would have ordered a GT3 (likely Touring) if allocation was available and without a markup. They're all fantastic cars and you cant go wrong with any of them.
Having said that I didn't want to spend the money on a GTS, or even an S w/ power pack when a GT3 would have been close in price compared to a decked out GTS. But would a GT3 have been a mistake for me? Perhaps, as I had a 997.3 GT3 for a short few months back in 2012. I found that car to be way too focused as a track car to enjoy on the streets and back roads where I live. I've heard that the 991.2 GT3 is a more versatile model but I didn't try all that hard to procure an allocation based on the experience I had with my 997.2.
So what does the T represent for me and why was I attracted to the model? Since I sold my GT3 back in 2012 I ordered a M4, chose not to take delivery, bought and sold two Boss 302's (one was an LS) and two GT350's (the engine seized in the first one) What these cars do is chase horse power and what I've found out about myself is that I just don't use most of the power that these cars had. Fit/finish, paint quality etc was seriously lacking on the GT350's as well.
I'm tired of chasing horsepower and this time around I wanted a well rounded car that is a great DD with more than enough power to have fun with on back roads, weekend road trips, compliant suspension for the frost heaved twisties etc. The perfect model for me appears to be the T. Hopefully it'll do everything I want it to without spending more money on the very high levels of performance that I simply don't use all that much. The T is a base 911 with some performance parts. That is what most of us will ever need if we were all being honest with ourselves. If you frequent track days then a GT3 is what you should get. For me I just hung up my leathers after attending and instructing sport bike track days for 12 straight years. Maybe I'll get into doing cars days in the future, but for now the T fits the bill.
Having said that I didn't want to spend the money on a GTS, or even an S w/ power pack when a GT3 would have been close in price compared to a decked out GTS. But would a GT3 have been a mistake for me? Perhaps, as I had a 997.3 GT3 for a short few months back in 2012. I found that car to be way too focused as a track car to enjoy on the streets and back roads where I live. I've heard that the 991.2 GT3 is a more versatile model but I didn't try all that hard to procure an allocation based on the experience I had with my 997.2.
So what does the T represent for me and why was I attracted to the model? Since I sold my GT3 back in 2012 I ordered a M4, chose not to take delivery, bought and sold two Boss 302's (one was an LS) and two GT350's (the engine seized in the first one) What these cars do is chase horse power and what I've found out about myself is that I just don't use most of the power that these cars had. Fit/finish, paint quality etc was seriously lacking on the GT350's as well.
I'm tired of chasing horsepower and this time around I wanted a well rounded car that is a great DD with more than enough power to have fun with on back roads, weekend road trips, compliant suspension for the frost heaved twisties etc. The perfect model for me appears to be the T. Hopefully it'll do everything I want it to without spending more money on the very high levels of performance that I simply don't use all that much. The T is a base 911 with some performance parts. That is what most of us will ever need if we were all being honest with ourselves. If you frequent track days then a GT3 is what you should get. For me I just hung up my leathers after attending and instructing sport bike track days for 12 straight years. Maybe I'll get into doing cars days in the future, but for now the T fits the bill.
07-17-2018, 07:50 PM
#26
No I haven't driven a T. I did consider getting one, but they were too high demand (would have to order without even test driving one) and people were over paying 5-10k over MSRP to get one. I require AWD for various reasons so I decided to look for CPO C4S or order a loaded C4...I had budget of up to 120k (not bad considering I'm 31). I have driven the base plenty of times and it has the same engine/tune as this T...none of them were manual though because my car is a daily and personally don't like the Porsche MT (clutch too heavy and it's too difficult for me to shift smoothly, especially 1 to 2). The T doesn't suit me because it's best with MT and it isn't AWD.
Now that I own a C4S PDK, I actually thinking "what if I had a GTS or TTS or GT3" and zero concerns about turbo lag because there isn't any. Buying a T because you want the characteristics of a NA engine that's actually twin turbo is silly in my mind....it's a turbo engine and once you drive it enough you'll be wanting more boost. If you want an NA engine and don't like turbos...get the 991.1...or GT3 if you can afford it and lucky enough to get an allocation. The base/T and S have the same "linear acceleration," but in the S it just happens slightly faster and probably insignificantly so. The S is superior to a base not because of power but it has much better brakes, bigger wheels, PDCC, SPASM, rear steering, and AWD...if you're buying an S without that, it's pointless...might as well get a base car. The T only has SPASM, bigger wheels, and rear steering going for it....not getting rear steering is a mistake similar to how not getting SC with PDK is a bad idea. The detuned engine is a negative...don't see why anyone willingly accepts less power. These cars are quick, but not 3 seconds to 60" quick unless you have SC and use launch control all the time and no one does that in normal driving. Once you get moving and get use to the power, you realize you want more not less... having longer gears of MT and a detuned engine will leave you wanting more eventually.
Anyone else reading that's not trying to justify their T purchase, my recommendation is to get the highest tier model and most options you can afford. If your going to load up a base car with options that the T already has...get the T. If you're going to get an S with all the options GTS has...get the GTS. If you can afford a GT3 or Turbo, get that. Getting the lessor model and justifying it with anything other than your budget is very silly IMO. It's an expensive sports car you buy to go fast and thinking anything else is over thinking it. And yes buying a Porsche has plenty to do with ego...people see you in a base car or T with no options (standard interior and no options), they know that you couldn't afford an S or GTS whether you like it or not.
Now that I own a C4S PDK, I actually thinking "what if I had a GTS or TTS or GT3" and zero concerns about turbo lag because there isn't any. Buying a T because you want the characteristics of a NA engine that's actually twin turbo is silly in my mind....it's a turbo engine and once you drive it enough you'll be wanting more boost. If you want an NA engine and don't like turbos...get the 991.1...or GT3 if you can afford it and lucky enough to get an allocation. The base/T and S have the same "linear acceleration," but in the S it just happens slightly faster and probably insignificantly so. The S is superior to a base not because of power but it has much better brakes, bigger wheels, PDCC, SPASM, rear steering, and AWD...if you're buying an S without that, it's pointless...might as well get a base car. The T only has SPASM, bigger wheels, and rear steering going for it....not getting rear steering is a mistake similar to how not getting SC with PDK is a bad idea. The detuned engine is a negative...don't see why anyone willingly accepts less power. These cars are quick, but not 3 seconds to 60" quick unless you have SC and use launch control all the time and no one does that in normal driving. Once you get moving and get use to the power, you realize you want more not less... having longer gears of MT and a detuned engine will leave you wanting more eventually.
Anyone else reading that's not trying to justify their T purchase, my recommendation is to get the highest tier model and most options you can afford. If your going to load up a base car with options that the T already has...get the T. If you're going to get an S with all the options GTS has...get the GTS. If you can afford a GT3 or Turbo, get that. Getting the lessor model and justifying it with anything other than your budget is very silly IMO. It's an expensive sports car you buy to go fast and thinking anything else is over thinking it. And yes buying a Porsche has plenty to do with ego...people see you in a base car or T with no options (standard interior and no options), they know that you couldn't afford an S or GTS whether you like it or not.
07-17-2018, 07:56 PM
#27
07-17-2018, 08:06 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Most people dont know the difference between a turbo or a carrera. (Non pcar owners)
07-17-2018, 08:19 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I didnt mean it to be derogatory. Its actually quite true the majoroty of the time, believe it or not. On the other hand there is lots of negativity in your comments regardless of whether you intended it (at least the last 2).