Carrera T Driving Review
07-18-2018, 06:42 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
ClassJ, I agree with your assessment.
I was looking to replace my GT3 because I was doing less track days and I wanted something to drive on a regular basis as the 996 is not a comfortable runabout car. I also wanted to simplify, ie get rid of trailer, and sell all track bits and pieces. I desire was to buy a 991.2 GT3 but with the cost, my plan for use, hassle with center locks etc it became less appealing.
The T offer a unique built with light weigh glass, nylon door straps, LWB etc but more importantly driver focused upgrades like shorter gearing and shorter shifter, Mechnical LSD with the manual etc. The shorter gearing combined with the torque of this engine, it is perfect for DD and it will also be better on the track. I think it is better gear box - engine combination vs a GT4. Why, GT4 2nd gear goes to 80+ mph and has a dead spot in the middle. The T pulls hard from 2-2500 rpm and all the way to max. The smaller turbos also make it rev very fast. My 996 GT3 I had to drive above 4K rpm to get something out of it.
I plan to take it to track days and with the 5 lugs wheels, smaller pads etc should keep life simple and cheaper. Will it out brake a GT3, no, but if there are BMW M2 race teams out there with 4 piston up front and two pistons in the rear and they are competitive, the T brakes will be more than adequate for the DE I will participate in.
I was looking to replace my GT3 because I was doing less track days and I wanted something to drive on a regular basis as the 996 is not a comfortable runabout car. I also wanted to simplify, ie get rid of trailer, and sell all track bits and pieces. I desire was to buy a 991.2 GT3 but with the cost, my plan for use, hassle with center locks etc it became less appealing.
The T offer a unique built with light weigh glass, nylon door straps, LWB etc but more importantly driver focused upgrades like shorter gearing and shorter shifter, Mechnical LSD with the manual etc. The shorter gearing combined with the torque of this engine, it is perfect for DD and it will also be better on the track. I think it is better gear box - engine combination vs a GT4. Why, GT4 2nd gear goes to 80+ mph and has a dead spot in the middle. The T pulls hard from 2-2500 rpm and all the way to max. The smaller turbos also make it rev very fast. My 996 GT3 I had to drive above 4K rpm to get something out of it.
I plan to take it to track days and with the 5 lugs wheels, smaller pads etc should keep life simple and cheaper. Will it out brake a GT3, no, but if there are BMW M2 race teams out there with 4 piston up front and two pistons in the rear and they are competitive, the T brakes will be more than adequate for the DE I will participate in.
I agree with your street driving opinion of the GT4. My 981 CS had long gearing and on the street. That was only real gripe about it.
I finally drove a Gt4 the same day I drove the T. On the street it had the same feel as my Cayman and was a little faster. But for 105k for a pre owned cayman that was marginally more fun than my 981 I was not into it. For the track, I can see it being very fast.
As far as fun street driving the T was worlds better.
I went in GT4 or 991 GTS shopping to replace my total loss 981 and ended up with the T.
07-18-2018, 07:05 PM
#62
Originally Posted by tgavem
Agree, and MINTHRAL reminds me of the guy that posted on the Cayman forum about 1-2 years ago on how to fit 3 people in it - 2 pages later at it was about him picking up 2 girls at the club to take home. Pointless
Originally Posted by ronht
Now THAT is an understatement!
Well said, I got the very same impression.
Well said, I got the very same impression.
07-18-2018, 07:43 PM
#63
Clearly I don't know anything about money because I bought a used 1.5 year old 150k MSRP (when new) 911 and can comfortably afford it at 31. Oh and I also own (no mortgage) my house, which I built. Settle down with your personal insults let's stick to facts...or wait it's rennlist. Carry on!
I don't need to drive the T to understand what it is. The T is a base car with packages. I've driven the base car (was close to buying a new one) and now own an S cars with all options. All the T does is give SC, PSE, GT steering wheel/ Sport seats plus, 20 inch wheels, and SPASM standard...and rear steering or bucket seats as an option. My S has all the perf options and I know exactly what they do.
The T curb weight is 3140 LB. The base car curb weight is 3153 LB and the S is 3175 LB. There is no significant weight reduction in a T, especially after people load it up with options. If you want to reduce weight, go on a diet. Both the base and T engine are electrically limited. Torque is flat in the mid range. Considering you can tune the cars to 20% more torque, the motor can handle little extra weight. It's going to do the torque it's tuned for.
The T has thinner glass and reduced sound insulation. It going to have a little more engine/exhaust and road noise in the cabin. I guess some people want this especially if it's 'fun' rather than daily car for the, but being the common criticism of the 911 is lots of road noise, I personally hardly see this as a plus. Noise gets old eventually. Is a little more interior noise transform the car? Doubt it.
The T has a shorter final drive ratio with the manual to make it a little quicker. I fail to see why this is useful considering (apparently) a T buyer doesn't care about going fast. Couple the transmission with PSE, less sound insulation, and SPASM, you get sportier base car.
Okay. That's it. Special car and any different than a base? I don't think so. An S or GTS is fundamentally the same car, but offers more unless you don't care for the extra power bigger brakes, etc.
I know how a Porsche NA engine drives because I put more than 60k miles on my 981. There is no lag in 991.2s, but power delivery is different. The turbos spool and as boost builds you go faster, but the NA is throttle on or off. The twin turbo is a more dynamic engine and boost shouldn't be confused with lag. If you use sport plus mode and rev 3k+, 13-17 boost builds almost instantly making the car go much quicker than an NA. If you're in the lower RPMs, throttle response is immediate, but boost builds slower (good because you don't always want to drive fast at low RPMs). For anyone to claim a T has "less turbo lag" doesn't understand how a turbo engine works. The base/T engine simply limits boost very slightly and doesn't build boost any faster or slower than an S...they have the same turbo hardware. Paying more for a detuned engine thinking you're getting less lag or will shoot unicorns out the back is madness.
The original T was cheaper, stripped out with real weight reduction. This new version is a packaged base car same as a GTS is a packaged S, but the T has some clever marketing. Bad car? No...just nothing special like marketing has you believe.
I don't need to drive the T to understand what it is. The T is a base car with packages. I've driven the base car (was close to buying a new one) and now own an S cars with all options. All the T does is give SC, PSE, GT steering wheel/ Sport seats plus, 20 inch wheels, and SPASM standard...and rear steering or bucket seats as an option. My S has all the perf options and I know exactly what they do.
The T curb weight is 3140 LB. The base car curb weight is 3153 LB and the S is 3175 LB. There is no significant weight reduction in a T, especially after people load it up with options. If you want to reduce weight, go on a diet. Both the base and T engine are electrically limited. Torque is flat in the mid range. Considering you can tune the cars to 20% more torque, the motor can handle little extra weight. It's going to do the torque it's tuned for.
The T has thinner glass and reduced sound insulation. It going to have a little more engine/exhaust and road noise in the cabin. I guess some people want this especially if it's 'fun' rather than daily car for the, but being the common criticism of the 911 is lots of road noise, I personally hardly see this as a plus. Noise gets old eventually. Is a little more interior noise transform the car? Doubt it.
The T has a shorter final drive ratio with the manual to make it a little quicker. I fail to see why this is useful considering (apparently) a T buyer doesn't care about going fast. Couple the transmission with PSE, less sound insulation, and SPASM, you get sportier base car.
Okay. That's it. Special car and any different than a base? I don't think so. An S or GTS is fundamentally the same car, but offers more unless you don't care for the extra power bigger brakes, etc.
I know how a Porsche NA engine drives because I put more than 60k miles on my 981. There is no lag in 991.2s, but power delivery is different. The turbos spool and as boost builds you go faster, but the NA is throttle on or off. The twin turbo is a more dynamic engine and boost shouldn't be confused with lag. If you use sport plus mode and rev 3k+, 13-17 boost builds almost instantly making the car go much quicker than an NA. If you're in the lower RPMs, throttle response is immediate, but boost builds slower (good because you don't always want to drive fast at low RPMs). For anyone to claim a T has "less turbo lag" doesn't understand how a turbo engine works. The base/T engine simply limits boost very slightly and doesn't build boost any faster or slower than an S...they have the same turbo hardware. Paying more for a detuned engine thinking you're getting less lag or will shoot unicorns out the back is madness.
The original T was cheaper, stripped out with real weight reduction. This new version is a packaged base car same as a GTS is a packaged S, but the T has some clever marketing. Bad car? No...just nothing special like marketing has you believe.
07-18-2018, 07:56 PM
#64
I think part of the problem is you are coming across as trying to force your opinions and wants on others. So many things you pointed out are things that people want. Just because you don't does not mean they are wrong. But that's how you are presenting your argument. Many of the reasons you dont like the T are reasons that I do. I would agree that the GTS is a great car but you have options on your car that I would not get. That does not make your purchase wrong, you just wanted different things. Congrats on whatever you did to get you to where you are but you have to realize that not everyone is the same as you. I will be more than happy in my T when I get it until I am not. Then I will look for something else. That's the way life works. But when I get a different car I'm not going to come out and criticize others for still liking a model I may no longer prefer. It's great to express an opinion but when you are talking about something as subjective as this you cant call out right or wrong..... just my opinion.....
07-18-2018, 08:31 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
The T has a shorter final drive ratio with the manual to make it a little quicker. I fail to see why this is useful considering (apparently) a T buyer doesn't care about going fast.
Who knew? This is as absurd as calling a PDK buyer lazy for not wanted to use his left leg.
Moral of the story is to each his own.
I have driven a base, S, and T as many others have. I bought the shoe that fit best.
BUT for example I am not going to publish opinions about cars I have never driven.
07-18-2018, 08:39 PM
#66
I think part of the problem is you are coming across as trying to force your opinions and wants on others. So many things you pointed out are things that people want. Just because you don't does not mean they are wrong. But that's how you are presenting your argument. Many of the reasons you dont like the T are reasons that I do. I would agree that the GTS is a great car but you have options on your car that I would not get. That does not make your purchase wrong, you just wanted different things. Congrats on whatever you did to get you to where you are but you have to realize that not everyone is the same as you. I will be more than happy in my T when I get it until I am not. Then I will look for something else. That's the way life works. But when I get a different car I'm not going to come out and criticize others for still liking a model I may no longer prefer. It's great to express an opinion but when you are talking about something as subjective as this you cant call out right or wrong..... just my opinion.....
07-18-2018, 09:18 PM
#67
Fair enough, it's just that some of your comments came off more definitive than opinion, that's all. And you are right, I dont want all those options and optioned mine super plane because that's what I like. With mine coming in around $112k after a small dealer discount and not having to wait any longer than normal made it make sense to me. Timing plays its role in things too.... I'm just glad we all enjoy the cars so much!
07-18-2018, 11:19 PM
#68
I can see where Minthral is coming from given the spec sheet. I feel the T sits exactly where Porsche wanted it to sit e.g. base - T - S - GTS. Keep in mind I think the base is a fantastic car, the T dials it up a notch with SPASM and access to RAS if you want it. How does it drive - ok, at one of the recent 70th anniversary gigs a buddy and I swapped cars - he has a nice racing yellow T with LWBs, manual without RAS (he traded out of a Series II 997 GT3) and I have a GR GTS-PDK with all of the performance fruit (I have several PSCs plus a few other toys).
It was a great day, sunny with a morning drive followed by lunch at a winery - courtesy of Porsche - followed by an afternoon drive through the hills. We swapped after lunch. This is my take - the LWBs were fine (6ft ~ 85kgs) and I was in the car three hours - I have the Sports Plus with alcantara finish in the GTS. The manual gear box was good but not stellar as it had a slight vagueness that makes me believe it has a cable linkage (and probably reflects the fact I prefer the required accuracy of rod linkage). The drive itself was fun, although we couldn't fully wind the cars out for any length of time as we were on public roads.
I did notice the lack of rear steering on twisty sections - the spasm felt no different to the spasm on my GTS - basically very effective in both daily and more aggressive mode. There was marginally more roll in the T and less steering feel (marginally less). Through and out of corners the GTS pulled away, this was noticeable. Noise, the T was a bit louder inside than the GTS but mainly road noise - perhaps not a fair test because we were on country roads with very coarse pavement. Did I notice any brake fade - no.
What was my buddys take - basically he felt the GTS carried more corner speed, was more agile in, through and "explosive" out of corners - he also felt the braking delivered better modulation. He felt he made a mistake with the LWBs mainly because his wife hates them (he really likes them). Having said that he prefers his T to his old GT3, largely because its more useable and well suited to road use (he was very over his GT3 and was glad to move it on at a good price).
From the above, on twisty public roads, its fairly obvious the presence or absence of RAS makes a big difference along with TQE/HP. My personal view is Porsche should have offered SPASM and RAS to all customers from the get go. I'm sure a lot of "base" buyers would have optioned SPASM and many would have gone for both SPASM and RAS. I can't imagine S owners are feeling put up on as RAS and SPASM were available from the get go and, from a pragmatic driving point of view, thats where the discernible differences are generated (outside of TQE and HP).
Post Script: I didn't mention turbo lag - this is because I didn't notice any great difference between the two vehicles. (it exists in both but you don't really notice it).
Post Post Script: Reality check - Its hard to fault this generation of Porsche 911 sports cars - there is literally something for everyone either though starting model or through starting model and a variety of options that tailor the car to ones needs and aesthetics. Frankly, there is little to fault because the 3l twin turbo power plant is so good.
It was a great day, sunny with a morning drive followed by lunch at a winery - courtesy of Porsche - followed by an afternoon drive through the hills. We swapped after lunch. This is my take - the LWBs were fine (6ft ~ 85kgs) and I was in the car three hours - I have the Sports Plus with alcantara finish in the GTS. The manual gear box was good but not stellar as it had a slight vagueness that makes me believe it has a cable linkage (and probably reflects the fact I prefer the required accuracy of rod linkage). The drive itself was fun, although we couldn't fully wind the cars out for any length of time as we were on public roads.
I did notice the lack of rear steering on twisty sections - the spasm felt no different to the spasm on my GTS - basically very effective in both daily and more aggressive mode. There was marginally more roll in the T and less steering feel (marginally less). Through and out of corners the GTS pulled away, this was noticeable. Noise, the T was a bit louder inside than the GTS but mainly road noise - perhaps not a fair test because we were on country roads with very coarse pavement. Did I notice any brake fade - no.
What was my buddys take - basically he felt the GTS carried more corner speed, was more agile in, through and "explosive" out of corners - he also felt the braking delivered better modulation. He felt he made a mistake with the LWBs mainly because his wife hates them (he really likes them). Having said that he prefers his T to his old GT3, largely because its more useable and well suited to road use (he was very over his GT3 and was glad to move it on at a good price).
From the above, on twisty public roads, its fairly obvious the presence or absence of RAS makes a big difference along with TQE/HP. My personal view is Porsche should have offered SPASM and RAS to all customers from the get go. I'm sure a lot of "base" buyers would have optioned SPASM and many would have gone for both SPASM and RAS. I can't imagine S owners are feeling put up on as RAS and SPASM were available from the get go and, from a pragmatic driving point of view, thats where the discernible differences are generated (outside of TQE and HP).
Post Script: I didn't mention turbo lag - this is because I didn't notice any great difference between the two vehicles. (it exists in both but you don't really notice it).
Post Post Script: Reality check - Its hard to fault this generation of Porsche 911 sports cars - there is literally something for everyone either though starting model or through starting model and a variety of options that tailor the car to ones needs and aesthetics. Frankly, there is little to fault because the 3l twin turbo power plant is so good.
Last edited by groundhog; 07-19-2018 at 12:07 AM.
07-20-2018, 08:12 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Apparently they are making a Cayman T
https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...-corner-118934
Gonna be based on the 2.0 smaller turbo engine, but the weight was registered as the same as the base model in the US....
https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...-corner-118934
Gonna be based on the 2.0 smaller turbo engine, but the weight was registered as the same as the base model in the US....
03-28-2019, 12:23 AM
#70
Clearly I don't know anything about money because I bought a used 1.5 year old 150k MSRP (when new) 911 and can comfortably afford it at 31. Oh and I also own (no mortgage) my house, which I built. Settle down with your personal insults let's stick to facts...or wait it's rennlist. Carry on!
I don't need to drive the T to understand what it is.
I don't need to drive the T to understand what it is.
and thanks bragging about the things you purchased at 31 - you’re amazing and we all envy you. Did you build your house with your own hammer that you bought at 31?
c4 pdk - enough said.
some
of the **** I see on this forum
01-16-2020, 01:05 AM
#72
Congrats on the T, don't let the background chatter detract from the fun.
A 911 is going to be a blast to drive, will get you over 100 MPH wickedly fast and be great on the twisties, any model will do that.
Enjoy the drive!
A 911 is going to be a blast to drive, will get you over 100 MPH wickedly fast and be great on the twisties, any model will do that.
Enjoy the drive!
01-16-2020, 05:52 AM
#73
WTF is up with people on this forum? This thread started out a great thread and then turned into a pissing contest. I read through most of these posts and many of them are about people concerned with how owning a Porsche at a young age is some measure of success and how much money you make or have. Odds are those types have no clue. The demographics on Rennlist likely go from the average Joe making less than 6 figures to people having 10s and 100s if millions.
The following users liked this post:
Zeus993 (01-16-2020)
01-16-2020, 09:24 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
I think the 'less weight and sound insulation' is just a marketing gimmick. It doesn't sound any different than any different than a base, S, or GTS with PSE inside and is fundamentally the same experience, but slightly better handling than the base (lower/ firmer suspension, standard 20 inch wheels, and optional rear steering) and slightly worse than S/GTS (loaded with the same + more options).
I really don't think its that special...the Touring is more of a packaged bundle/ trim for someone who can't afford a loaded S or GTS, but wants sport PASM and rear steering. It makes a lot of sense with a manual, bucket seats, and limited to no options (other than rear steering, which is a huge deal/ must have after experiencing it). The T is great for the buyer who is the type who can't afford loading up an S model with options, but wants some them on a base. Stability of AWD and S power / handling bits gets my pick any day...a loaded GTS or S model is still the better car, especially if you plan to drive it daily. I'm sure many order a loaded T and over pay at nearly 150k instead of an C4S/GTS4 and that's something I'll never understand...heck I think that a loaded CPO S is a heck of a deal compared to a new T.
I really don't think its that special...the Touring is more of a packaged bundle/ trim for someone who can't afford a loaded S or GTS, but wants sport PASM and rear steering. It makes a lot of sense with a manual, bucket seats, and limited to no options (other than rear steering, which is a huge deal/ must have after experiencing it). The T is great for the buyer who is the type who can't afford loading up an S model with options, but wants some them on a base. Stability of AWD and S power / handling bits gets my pick any day...a loaded GTS or S model is still the better car, especially if you plan to drive it daily. I'm sure many order a loaded T and over pay at nearly 150k instead of an C4S/GTS4 and that's something I'll never understand...heck I think that a loaded CPO S is a heck of a deal compared to a new T.
01-16-2020, 10:45 AM
#75
WTF is up with people on this forum? This thread started out a great thread and then turned into a pissing contest. I read through most of these posts and many of them are about people concerned with how owning a Porsche at a young age is some measure of success and how much money you make or have. Odds are those types have no clue. The demographics on Rennlist likely go from the average Joe making less than 6 figures to people having 10s and 100s if millions.