^ Good responses above, and I guess it comes down to viewing all these seats as part of a safety system.

Sonorous, I tend to share your views, but would like to get past "pretty confident" if I can. Not sure I'll get there, in which case I may not install these seats. In the meantime, my research and learning—and slow parts collecting—continues. Need to find some time to work on the buckle next, as I'd really like to have a US buckle on a P03 stem if that is possible without mechanical compromise.

Ceepe, you also raise good points. There's probably a vast number of ways to look at this, but judging a seat by the outcome of one accident is tricky because accidents can—and do—take many forms, both predictable and unpredictable. I will note that the P03 seat, from my brief drive around the block, really doesn't provide more in the way of lateral support than the car's original 4WSS+ and certainly far less lateral support than a proper race seat or even the old 996 GT2/GT3 or "CGT" seats. I'm planning to address that with cloth seat centers (for whatever help that adds) in the event I am ultimately comfortable using these seats. But P03 and/or 918 seats aren't designed to be proper race seats as few if any customers would put up with the ingress/egress of a race seat in a street car. On the other hand, Porsche's sport buckets a) are designed to work with the rest of the car's safety systems, b) have side-impact airbags that move position with the driver, c) provide for proper harnesses, and d) are often (always?) FIA certified (a big deal). I am sure I am missing some other attributes, and I'd be interested to hear from someone with the proper credentials on whether you're better off in a proper race Recaro in the event of most accidents—but race seats are designed to work with a bunch of other parameters, chief among them the assumption that the driver will remain bolt upright in a helmet with a HANS device, full harnesses, a full roll cage, etc. It's a system, and in a street car I'd prefer to stick with components engineered to work with a street car's systems.

 

Stout, thanks for your post and feedback. That all makes sense. It is only recently that I have been thinking more about issues with mis matching safety systems and logics. Coming from the end of the spectrum of street cars and street driving, with a handful of track days per year. I agree that it would be impossible to compare situations and outcomes given variables and circumstances. In that sense, it seems the simpler (often stock) street based safety systems would be best for the most situations. I can understand how dangerous a cage anywhere near ones head could be in a street car. To that end and conversly, I even wonder how a helmet with the sun visor tilted up would interact with the front airbag. I removed my visor because i convinced myself a big plastic piece shouldn't be the first thing that hits the airbag if I crash my stock road car. I'm sure the factory seats with a half cage and whatever harness one can manage is likely the right balance for a street driven car. The amount of effort that goes into holding your body in place in a normal seat when driving on the track is reason enough to order the factory buckets, or otherwise install a bucket seat. Hopefully none of the impact stuff becomes relevant in the limited settings and moderate paces of DE. I still can't tell if the track is more dangerous than the Merritt parkway on Friday evenings. It feels like a toss up.

 

Moo,

If you still have this I will take it.

PM sent.

Thanks,

Karl

 

Ha—perhaps a DE day vs the parkway is six of one, half a dozen of the other. While I don't see a lot of texting while driving at track days, let's not kid ourselves about the pace. Most 991s can (and often do) achieve higher speeds than older Porsche race cars on track. So safety matters. Big time. And, unless someone can put better numbers to the safety of one setup vs another—for each individual situation, which is quite an onion—I tend to view safety equipment as six of one, half a dozen of the other too.

Autocrossing a Cayenne GTS years ago at a PCA event, while feeling sorry for the outside front tire and wondering if I could actually flip the thing, I began to wonder if I might be better off in the event of a roll-over without the helmet I was required to wear (with less weight for my neck to support and get pulled by, for instance, or for an airbag to hit). These days, I think about whether to run a HANS in street cars, as I bought a Simpson that also works with 3-point belts—but what about the fact you're now upright? That answer may not be the same depending on the car. The A-pillars in a 996/997 makes the A-pillars in a 901-993 look nearly invisible, but I've been struck by how thick the B-pillars in the 991/992 are. There is a lot of roll-over protection in these cars, and their A- and B-pillars remind me of Ruf's integrated roll cage. Is there as much protection as in a 991 race car? Obviously not. As much as an old air-cooled 911 with a half cage? Or a 996 with a half cage? Hmm. It's hard to know, but I'll just about always tend towards something engineered by Porsche over something that wasn't in anything resembling a like-v-like comparison.

For all of these reasons, I really like the bucket seats Porsche has offered for various 911s from the 964 RS forward, and the 997 GT2/991 P03 seats may be my favorite for their novel construction that gains rigidity by moving the hinges higher as well as the fact that they allow easy access to one of the best features of a 911: all that space behind the best seats in the house.

 

^^ Pete, I am very much aligned with your thinking. I run HPDE events hosted by PCA and I really like how strict they are with safety rules, especially relative to the other cars on track. But the safety rules for the occupants seem overly generalized across vehicles. I think the root cause is the lack of real scientific data about safety systems and HPDE events. I share your opinion that in a late model Porsche the safest configuration is probably either full roll cage like in a CS, or a 100% stock car with NO helmet. With the suite of airbags and the very rigid body structure, I speculate that adding a helmet adds more risk than it reduces. The human neck and the airbag systems were not designed around helmets. I also have a Simpson Hybrid S and believe it should really be a requirement when wearing a helmet in a car, with 3-point belts, on track, considering all of the other rules that are enforced. I also purchased one for my wife who has started to participate in HPDE with her daily. I see the challenge for PCA or any other HPDE organizer is to balance the safety requirements for cars which span decades and with very heterogeneous systems. For example, in a 964 911, I can buy into a helmet having value in certain crash conditions based on the safety systems from that era. I also get that it would be difficult for HPDE organizers to enforce different rules for different vehicles.

Everything in between the stock/CS extremes is some kind of compromise with unknown and untested results. The other consideration however, is fatigue and enjoyment on long mult-day track events. There is a big advantage to 6-point harnesses on track in that they eliminate the all of the extra effort required to resist the g-forces on track. They allow the driver to relax and focus on driving. After many hours and many days this really adds up and there can be a secondary safety benefit of reduced fatigue. My personal motivation to add these seats to my car for HPDE was compatibility with 6-point belts. The challenge then becomes determining what mix of safety systems works best with harnesses without going full race car. It is unfortunate that for such a critical safety decision, there is very little science to lean on.

My decision was to follow PCA recommendations and also add a roll bar. While there are many opinions around the effectiveness of a bolt in roll bar, I figure it only potentially improves roll-over safety. If it is ineffective, then okay, but if it helps in any way, I'll take it. This configuration is also very close to the proven, Porsche designed, Club Sport package delivered from the factory in ROW. This decision is a lot easier in a Cayman because the area that the bar occupies is not usable. On a 911 this is more complex. With a GT 911 I would do a rear harness/roll bar. With a regular 911 I would do just a harness bar. I believe a 981 and 991 are both rigid enough to prevent roof collapse in all but the most severe incidents. This is all just my theory albeit based on intuition as a mechanical engineer.

Bringing this full circle and back on topic, IMHO these seats are still the best option for a 981 or 991 owner who wants to upgrade to 6-point harnesses for HPDE use and who could not or did not option the 918 style fixed buckets. As an added bonus, in a 991 they offer accessible back seats compared to fixed buckets!

 

Thanks—after calling around a few different places, seems there really is no way to source anything but this black-stitched version.

Went ahead and ordered. Will be sending off to have re-stitched in Platinum Grey ...

 

^ The reality is I just don't know, so I don't have an opinion on this—just questions. I too wish we had answers, but for all the reasons you nail—and probably a few more—those answers are going to be hard to come by. I looked at doing an article on this for Pano with good intentions, but man was that an onion. Decided that it was past what we could do well or right, and it was an idea never realized.

I like your strategy and would probably do something similar for my own personal safety (and am not advocating or recommending anyone else does the same), and dearly wish the aftermarket would create products that serve the needs of 911s that people use on the street with something that can be easily bolted into and out of the car. Yes, welded is better, but fixed mounts (at the seatbelt anchors?) and then at a harness bar like TPC's would be better than nothing. The B-pillars on the 991/992 look extremely strong (compare their thickness, angles, and engineering vs, say, a 1987 911 with a roll hoop), but the one thing I wonder about is an intrusion through its aluminum roof skin. Would a bar be better? Steel? Or a carbon or titanium "shape" that maybe reaches forward and back? Cost v safety ROI? "Store-ability" when the car is on the street? 2-3 flat steel or chromoly bars would be good in that regard.

We're in one way very far afield from a discussion about these seats. On the other hand, it's a very appropriate conversation to have if there are others thinking about adding these to use a Hybrid S and harnesses.

 

This is all really interesting and thank you to all for both the seat information and troubleshooting, and now the larger conversations of safety. I have always thought an unsecured helmet in a violent crash would be a hell of a thing for the neck to take. And since most if not all PCA clubs (CVR for me), require the helmet it seems we're damned from the start for a street driven car.

Where I'm a little confused is this, if one is running a factory bucket with airbags, or an aftermarket bucket with a slightly more enclosed shell but no airbags, along with a half/rear cage that you see in a ROW clubsport package factory car, with a six point harness, isn't that going to reduce body movement enough to lessen the significance of airbag contact, or prevent you from hitting an airbag at all? And if so, wouldn't adding a Hans be the final ingredient to an almost race safety setup? Maybe not if flipping the car, but I'm way more concerned with violent impact front, rear, or side over getting the car upside down. And then toggling back to the street you have the street safety systems in place. Assuming you have the factory seat and still have the thorax airbag. The cage is moot given it's behind the seats, right?

 

^ Assuming no upside down, that set of assumptions makes sense.

With that said, it is surprisingly easy to go upside down—even on tracks where it seems like you'd just go sliding across a big field of dirt...

 

This is a fantastic thread and I'm really happy that it's grown to include a focus on safety too. I'm very interested as after a season of tracking my car, I am very interested in adding a harness due to the fatigue/control aspects of not having one (not to mention safety aspects). My car gets maybe 70-80% of its mileage on the street, so maintaining that focus is totally appropriate and, while maybe unrealistic, I'm really hoping to land on the jack of all trades config and hoping these seats with a harness bar will offer that (acknowledging that a proper, dedicated, track car with cage, race seats, etc would of course be better). Very appreciative for everyone here taking the time (and $) to do the research on how/if these seats will work out and doubly appreciative for the safety angle being focused on. If there wasn't the understandable requirement to have matching seats/restraints for PCA (which I'd probably want to meet even running in solo run groups), I'd probably just go with a LWBS in the driver's seat and forego the folding aspect due to keeping the original seat on the passenger side. Alternately, I could go with non-folding seats on both sides and just force my kids to squeeze through on the occasions they're back there! ;-)

 

For me, the thorax airbag is more about street safety. I see it as a low priority for track. So if one was only track driving, an aftermarket bucket might be the best option, especially if it has a Halo. But I don't think the aftermarket seat is the best option for a dual purpose car. While some people say otherwise, I don't agree that a 3 point belt is safe with a racing bucket. I talked to two well know and well respected Porsche race shops that agreed with me. You could swap the racing bucket for each event but that is a PITA that would get old quickly for me. Plus you would have an airbag light to deal with and an unknown functionality of the remaining airbags without a shop tweaking the software for you every time. As for the the Hans, I see that as a first, not a final ingredient.

And +1 to Pete's point on rollovers. My biggest concern is a rollover and the resulting neck thrashing. This is another good reason to go with a Hybrid S restraint as it does offer some side restraint compared to most other Hans devices. It costs a little more but completely worth it IMHO.

 

I have a new set of these for sale in Zurich Switzerland https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1181028

 

If I’m switching from US LWB to these folding buckets, is it less of a headache than starting with the sofas?

Can I just transfer the seatbelt buckles and airbag sensor from the LWBs and call it a day?

 

It's the same headache. You'll get the same 4 error codes that I got because of missing sensors in the RoW folding buckets.

Stout, for your quest to do things functionally correct, you should look into how the LWB seat position sensors are mounted. From what I can tell they look different than the ones on my 18-way seats. The sensors are different and seam more integrated into the slide rails, which may make them easier to properly mount to the P03 rails. (it's hard to tell from pictures but the sensor on the LWBs may actually the be the same as the ones I ended up buying when doing this project)

 

I'd rather have these than the 918 seats, both due to my torso being better held by them and for access to the rear interior. Flip side, the height adjustment on the 918-syle seats is a nice feature these don't have.

The seatbelt buckle from the 918 seats are a no-go, as you can see in one of my earlier posts, due to the stem length and angle. Airbag sensor and controller might be a better "match" according to the type of seat pads used in the 918 and P03 seats, but .moo or marinb had an interesting post above that should be considered with re: to the factory's requirement that the seat pad, sensor, and control box be replaced as a system if any one element needs to be replaced. Others have used the controller their car came with and added a VW Group or Cayenne occupancy sensor, which seems to satisfy the car's systems, but I'd still like to understand whether the occupancy sensor is binary (on/off) or more than that. Perhaps Porsche's requirement has something to do with foam and sensors that match to accurately measure a certain weight determined by the DOT or some other agency, but would like to know more.

But, to your question, marinb is correct below: It's the same headache.

^ Good tip, and will do as I have a friend who is happy to help here. With that said, I bought the correct sensors for my car with hopes of getting back under my seat again and looking at how they're mounted to see if there is a good way to replicate that with the P03 setup. The sensors "clip in" with a "locating pin" behind the clip in section, so it looks like two holes would need to be drilled in the correct location. Would be nice if that is the case. I suspect these may limit or even defeat the airbag for shorter drivers, and while there is no one in my family who can legally drive and is that short, you can never be sure who might end up driving your car when you take it in for service.