No full EV 911? I think bets are off
04-13-2018, 07:36 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No full EV 911? I think bets are off
I noticed in the general discussion site that there was a thread about no full EV 911 planned. However, that was April 4. Now it is April 13 and with the news of a new CEO for VW group, it looks like all bets are off.
https://www.usnews.com/news/business...t-replaces-ceo
I would bet that a full electric 911 may come back to the works, even if we previously thought that is relegated to the Mission E vehicle.
Also interesting is that there is a decoupling of Audi and Porsche. Porsche is now put in a separate group with Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini. Given that Porsche will be the big muscle in that group, maybe more Porsche-developed engines for the non-sports car models? I can see using the 4-cylinder 718 engine in a next generation Macan.
https://www.usnews.com/news/business...t-replaces-ceo
I would bet that a full electric 911 may come back to the works, even if we previously thought that is relegated to the Mission E vehicle.
Also interesting is that there is a decoupling of Audi and Porsche. Porsche is now put in a separate group with Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini. Given that Porsche will be the big muscle in that group, maybe more Porsche-developed engines for the non-sports car models? I can see using the 4-cylinder 718 engine in a next generation Macan.
04-13-2018, 08:02 PM
#2
Hopefully this full electric 911 will also be self driving.
04-13-2018, 10:01 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I can't imagine a hybrid will be a satisfactory product. ( I understand the 918 is a great car, but it's $1 million and not as practical as a 911). The 911 is already a space constrained vehicle, batteries, electric motors and additional electrical equipment will need to compete for space with the ICE. The added weight of two powertrains isn't going to help things, and we all know the car will need to grow to fit all the components. How many of us would be happy with the engine shutting down to run on electric only- don't most of us disable the stop/start system as a routine task?
My thoughts lead to thinking that an all electric 911 would be a better solution. Yes, the battery would be heavy, but take away the ICE, fuel tank, transmission, exhaust, coolant, radiators, etc, and I think the weight penalty would be modest. An AWD version would also be a slam dunk and no driveshaft. The way most of use our cars, a 250 mile range would be plenty and the battery can take up space used by the fuel tank, driveshaft and transmission. I just think it would result in a simpler, purer sports car, rather than a fantastically complicated and expensive hybrid. If we need to give up the ICE, go all electric and make it sick fast.
My thoughts lead to thinking that an all electric 911 would be a better solution. Yes, the battery would be heavy, but take away the ICE, fuel tank, transmission, exhaust, coolant, radiators, etc, and I think the weight penalty would be modest. An AWD version would also be a slam dunk and no driveshaft. The way most of use our cars, a 250 mile range would be plenty and the battery can take up space used by the fuel tank, driveshaft and transmission. I just think it would result in a simpler, purer sports car, rather than a fantastically complicated and expensive hybrid. If we need to give up the ICE, go all electric and make it sick fast.
04-13-2018, 10:41 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
^^^ An all electric 911 may do well if Formula E take off. Brave new world when most kids no longer read car magazines but are hooked up to devices like the one I am typing now.
Just one more link:
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...plate=mobile02
Reading through the lines, maybe Porsche will just concentrate on extra expensive cars while Audi takes over the role of cars in our budget. We may be the last consumers to be have bought "affordable" Porsche cars
Just one more link:
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...plate=mobile02
Reading through the lines, maybe Porsche will just concentrate on extra expensive cars while Audi takes over the role of cars in our budget. We may be the last consumers to be have bought "affordable" Porsche cars
04-14-2018, 01:35 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
However, I don't think we will see this. Audi + Porsche bring the lion's share of VG's profits. Decreasing Porsche's volume won't help in that pursuit.
04-14-2018, 02:42 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
I'd really like us to get to the end game of electric asap. Get the pain of hybrid complexity and expense over with, and the NA to turbo remorse forgotten. We'll get used to the whizz whizz noise, click clunk and wurr sounds (I don't mean 991.1 to .2).
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
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04-14-2018, 03:27 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
I'd really like us to get to the end game of electric asap. Get the pain of hybrid complexity and expense over with, and the NA to turbo remorse forgotten. We'll get used to the whizz whizz noise, click clunk and wurr sounds (I don't mean 991.1 to .2).
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
04-14-2018, 05:22 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
For me the battery tech is just not there yet. Not enough energy density and too long to charge. There is new tech out there that is promising, but some years off. The Teslas are fast but still way too heavy. I plan to keep my 911.2 C2s, but I already see it as a sort of new vintage gasoline engine powered curiosity
Our boring car is a Lexus RX450h, and that will be the one we keep for awhile then trade for some nifty new plug-in hybrid or full electric vehicle once the tech is acceptable. Not sure I ever see myself in a 911 electric although if Porsche does end up making one it will be way faster than my 911.
Our boring car is a Lexus RX450h, and that will be the one we keep for awhile then trade for some nifty new plug-in hybrid or full electric vehicle once the tech is acceptable. Not sure I ever see myself in a 911 electric although if Porsche does end up making one it will be way faster than my 911.
04-14-2018, 07:04 PM
#10
I'd really like us to get to the end game of electric asap. Get the pain of hybrid complexity and expense over with, and the NA to turbo remorse forgotten. We'll get used to the whizz whizz noise, click clunk and wurr sounds (I don't mean 991.1 to .2).
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
That Tesla P100D is literally ludicrous, I'm ok with a 911 like that.
04-14-2018, 07:27 PM
#11
Race Car
Setting aside the political debate, from a pure car perspective here's my two cents:
Hybrid 911 - meh. It will be neither fish nor fowl. Too heavy to be a legit track car and nothing particularly special from the stand point of innovation - say what you will but the Model S is innovative. The 918 is heavy.
Electric 911 - yuck. Very hard for me to get excited about that. A fully electric Panamera sure, why not? Or even a Cayenne. But there is absolutely nothing sporty about a Model S. It's fast as s**t in a straight line but otherwise exactly what you'd expect a 6K lb car to feel like.
Weight, torque and downforce are what makes a sports car a sports car IMHO. Until we see massive technology advances in battery technology to deal with range/weight and heat issues, I don't see a legit 911 electric that could be what a C2/C2S/C2GTS is right now - a nearly perfect combination of performance and luxury w/o much compromise at all.
Note: See sig.
Hybrid 911 - meh. It will be neither fish nor fowl. Too heavy to be a legit track car and nothing particularly special from the stand point of innovation - say what you will but the Model S is innovative. The 918 is heavy.
Electric 911 - yuck. Very hard for me to get excited about that. A fully electric Panamera sure, why not? Or even a Cayenne. But there is absolutely nothing sporty about a Model S. It's fast as s**t in a straight line but otherwise exactly what you'd expect a 6K lb car to feel like.
Weight, torque and downforce are what makes a sports car a sports car IMHO. Until we see massive technology advances in battery technology to deal with range/weight and heat issues, I don't see a legit 911 electric that could be what a C2/C2S/C2GTS is right now - a nearly perfect combination of performance and luxury w/o much compromise at all.
Note: See sig.
04-14-2018, 07:29 PM
#12
Just keep in mind that the VW AG CEO does nothing with the Porsche 911 unless Porsche SE (aka the Porsche family) allows it.
04-14-2018, 07:51 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
"The end game of electric." You mean when the subsidies run out because the taxpayers are all taxed out, the bubble mania that drove money-losing Tesla higher than profit-making GM pops, and everyone wakes up and realizes we never will be able to make enough chargers, let alone generate enough affordable electricity, to make EV anything more than a tree-huggers wet-dream? Well, considering Germany has boondoggled billions on wind power, generating mostly taxes, debt, and skyrocketing rates, yet refuses to admit the enormity of that colossal mistake, I would not be holding my breath. Ideologues never have been any good at admitting their mistakes. The insanity may have quite a ways to run yet.
04-15-2018, 11:12 PM
#14
The last of the old always beats the first of the new. I plan to hang on to my GT3 Touring for a long, long time in large part because it’s one of the last of the dying breed of noisy, thirsty, challenging normally aspirated manuals, and it is utterly awesome. However I’m under no illusion: the electrics are coming.
I also daily drive an electric while my wife has a plug in hybrid. There is no question that of these electric feels like the future (and the hybrid sucks). In comparison even a thoroughly modern German sports car feels antiquated- it’s amazing how much our brains compensate for turbo lag and downshifting (even PDK), but when you’ve lived without them they seem downright archaic. Other throwbacks- visits to the shop: one in 30k miles (checkup and a new set of tires). Visits to the gas station- chargers at home and work, how’s that for convenient? Running costs are incredibly low, meanwhile dynamically there’s no question in my mind that electrics will soon embarrass my 13 mpg city rated GT3, and that’s despite the extra weight they’re carrying.
These are just periferal reasons why those in the industry are now predicting a far faster shift to electric than even optimistic projections from a few short years ago. It’s not just the car companies that are investing billions into the technology (Porsche through VAG included), it’s also the oil companies. Shell is a major shareholder in my company, and they (along with other oil companies) are actively planning for “Peak Demand” to come much sooner than previously expected largely because of the much faster than expected shift away from oil for transportation fuels.
As for the generating capacity to feed all those cars you can be sure that the market will provide. PV’s exponential growth (30x increase in the last 10 years, currently adding 100 GW per year) and cost reduction (now half the cost of fossil fuels in sunny areas) helps. EV’s flexibility in time of charge helps a lot as well. Industry heavyweights like Shell and Daimler are moving to address both generation and electricity storage in ways that are not widely understood, and when combined with cheap PV will have a huge impact. Obviously the grid will need to adapt, but that’s constant and very doable, as recent AC adoption rates in Europe and accompanying change in afternoon summer demand have demonstrated.
I’m effectively in the oil industry, and have every reason to hope we keep burning it at our current rate for a long time to come. I also have enough insight and perspective to realize that’s not going to happen. We’re about to see an massive shift and it’s coming far faster than most can appreciate. I’ll get a nicer EV when one becomes available, but you’ll need to pry my GT3 out of my cold, dead hands. Because as good as EVs are they’ll need to get an order of magnitude better before they come close to making up for the lack of noise and drama in a sports car. In my eyes at least. Last of the old...
I also daily drive an electric while my wife has a plug in hybrid. There is no question that of these electric feels like the future (and the hybrid sucks). In comparison even a thoroughly modern German sports car feels antiquated- it’s amazing how much our brains compensate for turbo lag and downshifting (even PDK), but when you’ve lived without them they seem downright archaic. Other throwbacks- visits to the shop: one in 30k miles (checkup and a new set of tires). Visits to the gas station- chargers at home and work, how’s that for convenient? Running costs are incredibly low, meanwhile dynamically there’s no question in my mind that electrics will soon embarrass my 13 mpg city rated GT3, and that’s despite the extra weight they’re carrying.
These are just periferal reasons why those in the industry are now predicting a far faster shift to electric than even optimistic projections from a few short years ago. It’s not just the car companies that are investing billions into the technology (Porsche through VAG included), it’s also the oil companies. Shell is a major shareholder in my company, and they (along with other oil companies) are actively planning for “Peak Demand” to come much sooner than previously expected largely because of the much faster than expected shift away from oil for transportation fuels.
As for the generating capacity to feed all those cars you can be sure that the market will provide. PV’s exponential growth (30x increase in the last 10 years, currently adding 100 GW per year) and cost reduction (now half the cost of fossil fuels in sunny areas) helps. EV’s flexibility in time of charge helps a lot as well. Industry heavyweights like Shell and Daimler are moving to address both generation and electricity storage in ways that are not widely understood, and when combined with cheap PV will have a huge impact. Obviously the grid will need to adapt, but that’s constant and very doable, as recent AC adoption rates in Europe and accompanying change in afternoon summer demand have demonstrated.
I’m effectively in the oil industry, and have every reason to hope we keep burning it at our current rate for a long time to come. I also have enough insight and perspective to realize that’s not going to happen. We’re about to see an massive shift and it’s coming far faster than most can appreciate. I’ll get a nicer EV when one becomes available, but you’ll need to pry my GT3 out of my cold, dead hands. Because as good as EVs are they’ll need to get an order of magnitude better before they come close to making up for the lack of noise and drama in a sports car. In my eyes at least. Last of the old...
04-16-2018, 01:40 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
