VektorPerformance

I am in VA so somewhere in PA would be likely mid-point. There are a lot of options in the mid Atlantic area, but finding one with a decent setup, specifically airflow and linked rollers (I am AWD), will be the trick. I will poke around this weekend.

You're going to need to define 'similar' results better, as that leaves far too much wiggle room for dyno variances. If it made +30ft/lbs of torque and better spool, but only +5hp, are you going to say it didn't hit the mark? No way.

Lets move this to PM.

BTW the plots both start above 0 RPM. I don't even think it's possible to do that. We set our test window from 3,000-6,800 RPMs and start the pull at ~2,900RPMs to show spool. I don't like to start below that is it abuses the rod bearings terribly and this engine will see LOTS of abuse in it's future.

groundhog

Thanks, much appreciated My interest is perhaps more stepwise e.g.

(1) tune - event logs
(2) tune - third radiator - event logs
(3) tune - third radiator - intercoolers - event logs

VektorPerformance

Me as well. I love the little changes that make big difference to longevity. With Turbo cars, reducing EGTs is a good example as it's a parameter that has a decent effect on making power AND component longevity

PTS-BRG

Vector: Every chart I have ever seen provided by you, private owners or the motoiq article have shown a minimum of 19hp to 25hp gains.
Yes, if your headers show a 5hp gain that would be a misrepresentation of the gains and I would ask for a refund.
Do you think $4000 between parts and labor is a reasonable price to pay to gain 5hp? And when has your part ever shown such a low HP gain?

The car cannot show plots at Zero because the engine has to be running to be tested and Idle is 1500 or so.
The chart above does show a 1500 rpm, but I have no problem testing above 3000rpms as that is where it is needed/used anyway.

This is starting to sound like back peddling to me. Your part has to show similar gains to what has been advertised all over the internet based on dyno charts.
Similar gains is 19hp to 25hp. If it shows 15hp is it similar? similar enough. If it shows 35hp is it similar? Yes, that would be outstanding. 5hp? That's an epic fail and refund will be required.

Charts need to show IMPROVEMENT over stock. Want to start at 3000 rpms? Fine with me. 4000 rpms? Fine with me. All I want to know is if your headers significantly improve over stock.

If we cannot agree on the results, how about we let the forum members decide based on the charts? This shouldnt be this hard man..

VektorPerformance

Back peddling for feeling dumb taking the bait from a speculative forum lackey, lol

So if our results, and Moto IQ, and Customers results line up... why the speculation? Your 'I won't believe it till I see it' tactics have a vendor on the cusp of jumping through hoops, to give you forum cred. And show what? What's already known?

It seems to me that if our product was crap, it would be seen by at LEAST one of the public sources so far. The product is vetted, yet I'm questioning what your intent here is because the more I think about it, the more it seems like a redundant cause.

As far as power output per $ that is ALL in the scope of the customer, and not always the end-all be-all checkbox for many. Top race teams will pay far more for far less if it means shaving a few tenths, less unnecessary pit stops, or reducing the probability of a DNF. Bang for the buck if VERY important IMO, but we're not just selling HP here. I think most of us are pretty well versed in 'you get what you pay for'. I know I've learned that hard unfortunate lesson in my early years.

I would do area under the curve results as a percentage and or peak percentages. This way if a stock car makes only 200whp and the header makes +5 it's to scale.

I still have no PM/DM.

groundhog

You need to back it off.

BGB Motorsports

^^^ THIS! I don't know how we got so far off topic but i need to try and right the ship because i was the one that originally set it to sail.

My initial intentions for buying this car were to prove the following:

My plan for this thread was as follows:

Somehow, some way we got to a place where we are questioning gains and claims by another vendor and if we can please i would like to try and keep that to a minimum. I think we can all agree that the the OE bits, while not that terrible, can always be upgraded for an improvement. Let's just leave it at that!

I appreciate your explaining this but this is not going to happen and those that know me know that this is not my style. I wouldn't ever try and take your products to dyno them and make something we sell look better. Never once have i done a comparison of another vendor's products to make ours look better. I'm just married to the Cargraphic name and have been since 2009 because they take input and uses them to improve their stuff, revise fitment, improve reliability and i'm in bed with them. If you want to know, i don't get the parts for free but if it's for my car which i'm developing, it's 50% off. I approached Cobb, Cargraphic and IPD in the same way only because i've known them forever and have bought much product from them over the years. I don't fault you because i have never purchased anything from you so why would you give me anything better than a wholesale shop pricing offer. That's where the conversation between your employee and me stopped. I entertained the idea but we couldn't make it work in a way that both parties felt like it was equal on both sides so therefore i chose to sit and wait until the headers from Cargraphic were ready to ship from Germany.

If folks are interested in a group buy for these products we are going to have to do it outside of this thread because i'm already in a relationship with a supplier that is making products that compete with the aforementioned brand. I have bitten my tongue for a few days now because i'm getting more docile in my old(er) age and i'm not as likely to "ginger snap" but if we can, let's try and pursue a different thread for group buy of a competing vendor's products please, thank you!

I appreciate the offer but for a myriad of reasons i just can't do this. Thank you for at least trusting me to execute something like this but he's right. Even though i could be 100% impartial, it should be done by a 3rd party customer.

PTS-BRG

You can call me names. I understand the weight of what is being proposed and the potential it can have on your company and your product, so your emotions are understandable.
You can be there when we do the test or you can not be a part of it and see the results. At this point, I am 100% going forward with the testing to get the answers.
I am also 100% certain that if the results are not favorable you will find something to try and blame for it, but I am doing this for me and anyone who is still interested in buying your headers.

I will post up the before and after charts and let the public decide for themselves, I will also make my own determination based on the same chart.
As far as taking this to PM/DM, I have no interest in back room discussions, I prefer that everything is above board and in the public eye so that all of the terms and points are available to go back and review.

"So if our results, and Moto IQ, and Customers results line up... why the speculation?"
Because all of them show different results, were taken on different dynos and frankly, I do not believe any of them.

"It seems to me that if our product was crap, it would be seen by at LEAST one of the public sources so far."
Who? Your own result? MotoIQ results who I have never even heard of before? Maybe the anonymous customer?

IPD has sold far more pieces than you have and no one questioned their results until it was independently proven to show overall DECREASED performance over stock.
I am in a WIN WIN position here. If your headers provide improvements over stock then I get to reap the benefits of a superior part providing increased performance for my car.
If it is garbage, then I get to show the world its junk, save Porsche owners tens of thousands of dollars, disprove your graphs and be the savior of this thread.

How can I lose..

Signed,

"speculative forum lackey"

sithot

I'd never heard of BGB until you mentioned them. lol

BGB Motorsports

If you go to our web site you can read about us!

arter

BGB has been bigger in the Cayman / GT4 world than the 911 world.......

I bought a set of headers from them about 3-4 years ago for my cayman

4 Point 0

Hey PTS, I dynoed my car before and after the IPD. (Don't worry, we aren't going back there) I never had my shop print them out for me. But they usually save them and next time I am down that way I will ask. But nothing to do with IPD.

Its about the MotorIQ dyno. Look towards the top of that dyno. See how it made a peak and then rolled over and made a "M" or "W' type shape across the top? My dyno looked exactly like that. (UGLY)

So I trust that chart. Whereas the one sent in from the customer, that has had to of had smoothing or something. I asked my dyno guy and I never really understood what he was saying, but something like the car starts to reduce torque or something when on the dyno. Sorry I will have to ask again. Basically the car wasn't happy being on the dyno. And it made that ugly M across the top.

So the MotorIQ dyno looks very much like the charts I ran.

mdrums

mdrums

arter

great, too late for me as I ordered the 3rd radiator before I even received the car, but have a feeling that the stock system works pretty good.