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How do you think Porsche produces an engine with an absolutely-flat torque curve from 1,XXX rpm to 5,XXX rpm?
By managing the boost level across the rpm range. A “purely mechanical” engine of any sort never, ever, ever has a flat curve.
There’s no fraud or deception here. Porsche didn’t sell you a torque curve or a constant boost level. They sold you a peak torque and a peak (flywheel) horse power number. You’re all hitting, at least, those numbers.
i get what Porsche is doing. and they did it well. the motor runs great and it feels I think as NA as a Turbo engine can be. I love my GTS dont get me wrong. But that does not hide the fact that yes they are in a way deceiving us. They sold us peak torque and peak horse power numbers, but i'm only hitting those at Sport +. I should be hitting it everytime I floor the gas, which is what Porsche actually advertise, but we're not. We are at a "detuned" state as far as I can tell on any mode below Sport +. I won't go as far as to say that that is fraudulent but its definitely deceptive in my book if you compare to how they advertise different modes of sport chrono.
come on, don't take it out of context. read the entire post and you know what i meant. in any case even if did ask for a way to "detune" its still not the same as this issue we see here. Porsche didn't give us direction of how to detune my motor, they detuned it under our noses without our knowledge of it, and most importantly against what they claim, which is I believe that do not "detune" in different modes.
Seriously, I have to wonder how anyone can have any doubt whatsoever about Porsche playing around the way they do. If people don't like calling it detuning then don't call it detuning. Call it tuning appropriate to the market. Call it managing EPA and other regulatory bodies dictates. Call it managing their umpteen different models to each micro-niche. Call it keeping the suits and attorneys and liability lawsuits under control. Call it whatever you want. Just don't be in denial about it. The buttons alone should be enough. If not then Dave C's concise explanation ought to do it. Beyond that, it ain't just a river in Egypt.
And make no mistake, its not just power they do this with. By far the easiest, cheapest thing you can do to get your Carrera close to GT feel is replace all the rubbery suspension bushings with mono-*****. Those squishy bushings are the exact metaphorical counterparts to the electrical nannies that mush out your throttle inputs and smooth out your power output. Did Porsche detune the suspension? Well, yes. In that sense yes they certainly did.
Ditto steering response. Chris Harris is one of the very few really knowledgeable (to the point of being insightful) reviewers and skilled drivers out there, and if you listen to him talk about the GT3 he is very clear he talked with Porsche engineers and the incredible steering feel of the GT3 is not just down to mono-***** and linkages. All the electronic steering components are identical, only the underlying firmware is different. Elsewhere you have Porsche stating the challenge with electronic steering was not to be able to transmit all the road feel possible, but to figure out what to filter and what to pass. So did they detune Carrera steering too? Yes. Yes they most certainly did.
Its not a question of money, either. You think they are gonna manage throttle on a Carrera, then not do it on a GT2RS? Right. And I have a great deal on a Carrera 3 GTS for you too.
They do however offer the perfect solution for the guy who wants the Porsche that hasn't been detuned. Its called the RSR.
Even then you will find they still have something up their sleeve.
come on, don't take it out of context. read the entire post and you know what i meant. in any case even if did ask for a way to "detune" its still not the same as this issue we see here. Porsche didn't give us direction of how to detune my motor, they detuned it under our noses without our knowledge of it, and most importantly against what they claim, which is I believe that do not "detune" in different modes.
How is it taken out of context? You literally wrote, "Would it be possible to de-tune the engine so that one is driving with less horsepower than is available stock?"
After which, numerous members chimed in with:
Originally Posted by spiderv6
don't press your right foot so far down?
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf
Put a bunch of rags in the intake. Should choke it right down...
Originally Posted by ///M3THOD
Trade your P car in for a Honda Fit for both feet? You could wear them like roller skates.
Originally Posted by JW911
My wife is way too hot. Just too much for me to handle in bed. Anyone know how I can make her just a bit less attractive? A 6 or 7 would be best for me. The best girlfriend I ever had was a 4.
Originally Posted by saeyedoc
Just put regular gas in and take some of the air out of the tires, that should help
Originally Posted by StudGarden
How about those drag chutes the top fuel cars use? That way you €™d be slower but still rocking the racing look.
I went to drop off my car to get the X51 kit installed and was talking to the rep about how the boost isn't consistent, and to please run a scan on the car and check for any loose fittings ect... He came back with this off the instructions to the kit. He wouldn't let me take a picture of the document but eventually he let me take a picture of this after he covered the whole page. He gave me some speech on how the engine has these sensors that monitor pressure within the engine to control power (He's full of ****). I'm over it! I'll just take it to the drag strip when I get it back.
There was a similar statement with the 991.1 X51 Powerkit as well.
Originally Posted by eagletangogreen
"BUT WAIT THERES MORE"
I went to drop off my car to get the X51 kit installed and was talking to the rep about how the boost isn't consistent, and to please run a scan on the car and check for any loose fittings ect... He came back with this off the instructions to the kit. He wouldn't let me take a picture of the document but eventually he let me take a picture of this after he covered the whole page. He gave me some speech on how the engine has these sensors that monitor pressure within the engine to control power (He's full of ****). I'm over it! I'll just take it to the drag strip when I get it back.
How is it taken out of context? You literally wrote, "Would it be possible to de-tune the engine so that one is driving with less horsepower than is available stock?"
After which, numerous members chimed in with:
And my favorite:
lol thanks for the effort to quote my previous post.
what I mean by out of context is this:
i did ask in a previous post that it would be nice if there was a way to detune the motor by choice, to be able to have more fun with the my car in the city. I actually still believe that this would be a great idea. I would love the option to drive my car in the city, with say, the horsepower of a base carrera, and be able to crank it back up to GTS power when I want to. and as you have so nicely quoted the other members on the post, I was pretty much laughed down as ridiculous to even suggest such a preposterous thing.
but the context of that previous conversation is different from this one because its not about me complaining that I asked for a detuned motor and now I have it, its complaining that while we all thought our cars were at full power whenever we were at full gas, in actuality, it may be that Porsche has actually detuned our motors in different driving modes without our knowing. I wonder if the people that laughed at my detune post are laughing now. more likely, they are scratching their heads saying wtf?
my irritation is not the detune. its the misinformation. there is so much interested and informed Porsche owners on this forum and yet we collectively do not know definitively if the different driving modes have different boost and horsepower because Porsche says this is not the case, but our experience tells otherwise.
that you are citing my previous detune post to criticize me for bringing up this post is I believe out of context.
It would be interesting to know what the fidelity of the boost gauge is before coming to conclusions about the (lack of) power in Normal mode. After all, it’s just software. Could be programmed to make it look like there’s more boost but in reality there isn’t.
Doing a dyno run in N/S/S+ and comparing the figures across the rev range would clear a few things up. I was aware that things like gearbox, exhaust, steering and suspension settings changed but the manuals don’t say anything about power at WOT. An alternative to a dyno would be to do timed in-gear acceleration runs and see if there was any difference...
I was intrigued with the topic so this morning I went out and tested the theory. Frankly, I was shocked by the results and the implications and I can confirm what others have observed.
For reference, I have a C4 base engine with 7MT, SC and PSE. I did 7 runs total (2 in each mode plus another one in sport + up a hill). Here are the results:
Run 1 and 2: Normal Mode: Max boost was 10 psi on both runs.
Run 3 and 4: Sport mode: Max boost was also 10 psi on both runs.
Run 5 and 6: Sport + mode: Max boost was 14 psi on both runs. (I thought that the max boost on the base engine was limited to 13 psi but I repeated this again up a hill (run 7) on my way home and got the same result of 14 psi). I also achieved 14 psi in second gear.
Each run (1 - 6) was started from 5 mph with WOT in first gear on a flat road . PSE engaged (if that matters at all). Ambient temp was 22 degrees at about 200' above sea level.
So taking ace37's calculations on boost increase to HP gain (13.8 HP per PSI of boost), my car is making 55 more HP in sport + than sport/normal. That seems like a lot if his thumb rule is correct.
So what does the data mean? I think we all agree that increasing boost on the same displacement engine under the same conditions yields more HP right? We also agree that sport + (with SC package) is an option on the car and is not standard.
So when Porsche claims 370 hp, that must mean for the base car with no options correct? So how much HP is my car really making in each mode?
P.S....and like a dumba$$, on run 1, I was so focused on watching the boost gauge that I bounced the engine off the rev limiter. LOL. Oops. Dang this car is fast.
01-02-2018, 12:59 PM
