Originally Posted by enduro911

This thread provokes so many thoughts. Here are two.

1) The concept of the LMP vs the GT racing

Used to be that GT racing literally meant you drove a car off the showroom floor, put some stickers on it, maybe some tires and a cage, and drove it to the track. This is Porsche’s roots going all the way back to the 356. The RSR came about in 1973 and was a jumped up version of the 2.7 RS. The newer RSRs used to be a heavily jumped up version of the Cup which was a GT3 modified for racing. However, things like engine block architecture/suspension geometry/gearbox (presequential) remained the same.

Now, GT racing is like the silhouette racing from the 80s where the cars simply look like their street variants (in most cases). They don't use common parts and the technology transfer is not nearly as relevant. I believe (willing to be corrected) that you could turn a 996 or 997 GT3 into an RSR with a lot of money and some comfort compromises. Now, it’s not nearly as easy. The 991’s front suspension geometry was completely different from that in the street car and the newest one is mid-engined. So I don’t think that you can say “this is relevant to my interests and LMP is not” because I would say that the rules are putting a particular strain on the direct correlation between road and race in a car like the 911.

The LMP program is to win Le Mans, market the brand, serve as a laboratory for new tech which we all know is coming into our road cars, and to, like F1, showcase the management style/corporate ethos of the brand. Take the 919’s batteries. My understanding is that they will be the same ones in the Mission E just as the brakes in the 930 came right off the 917. I like that. Even the way that Porsche bothered to tune their street-going turbo engines once they had modern ECUs, to not heat soak under extreme autobahn and track use, came from their knowledge of how the cars worked under load. Porsche continues to be one of the only brands of car that can be driven to a race track and abused without breaking. To tackle that challenge at the highest level excites me.

Furthermore, and this is something that I don’t know that you get as often (maybe at all?), guys in the race division will participate in road car development. Hans Mezger designed the 917’s engine, then designed the Mezger six which went into street production. To have THAT GUY who built part of THAT RACE CAR design the component in your street car is too cool. I wish there was more of this and it is my hope that this link still exists.

2) GT Racing BOP

Commentators at Le Mans hit the nail on the head. The GT cars make their lap times in different ways. The agility the RSR has might offset the smaller torque curve and the aero might mitigate top speed issues. The BOP is something I personally hate though. People consider it a necessary evil. I think that the BOP has, in the past, given each manufacturer an unintentional advantage during certain parts of the season that they then reign in. Who won the championship has been a function of who has the advantage the longest and who makes the most of it while their car is quick. Personally, I would rather watch slower cars that are more like the ones that we could buy. Think about this set of rules for a minute:

- Manufacturer must sell __ number of cars to be able to race.
- Cars must have the exact same bodywork as the street cars but for the addition of side skirts, a front spoiler, and a rear wing.
- All cars must use the same suspension geometry and pickup points that are within __% of the ones in the street car. They can run any tire size and brake size they can fit within the standard bodywork
- Engines must maintain their standard aspiration AND meet emission requirements (to keep power in check) running on unleaded race fuel. No restrictors.
- Safety equipment like a cage are allowed to be fitted.
- You can fit the biggest fuel tank in the car that you can.
- Tires are to be produced to fit the car’s needs by a manufacturer. If Michelin have a better relationship with Porsche than they do with Corvette and a manufacturer starts gaining an advantage because of it, tough. We're already seeing manufacturers ask for special one-off tires for Nring times.
- All parts, including the roll cage, must be made available in a manufacturer’s parts catalogue to street car owners. Theoretically, you should be able to turn your street car into the race car the factory is producing with enough money and insanity.
- Cars must be sold under a certain price (car + parts that improve it beyond standard street car). Make it big enough so Ferrari can play but not so big that you get the GT1/CLK GTR/Mclaren F1 of the 90s where it's all $1M+.

THAT would be a series worth seeing IMO. Talk about road relevance.

Originally Posted by Archimedes

Except everyone knows about Formula 1 and almost nobody except rabid race fans even know what LMP is...

Originally Posted by Guest89

Without BOP the 911 would not be competitive.

BOP is seen in a variety of series and is designed to:

Keep costs somewhat reasonable
Facilitate a diversity of participation from various manufacturers - front engine, mid engine, rear engine; 6, 8, 10 cylinder; NA, FI, etc.

GTE Pro BOP at Le Mans was quite equitable overall. Every manufacturer led and had the ability to win. Michael Christensen wrecked the class leading 92 car.

Originally Posted by Just in time

The way it is now the ruling body finds ways to help those teams that do not to spend by giving them artificial advantages. Conversely they penalize those that have done their homework. If anyone wants to compete let the them find speed, do not hand it to them.

Again I recognize they want more cars on the grid so the BOP game is played.

Originally Posted by qbix

I might be wrong but I feel that Porsche did not deserve it 100%. VW pulled the plug for Audi LMP continuous successes and I feel that Porsche just put their sticker on Audi car. Have I missed by a lot with the above statement?

Originally Posted by neanicu

Yeah by 100%. The Audi was TDI.

Originally Posted by Guest89

http://www.thisisf1.com/2017/06/20/p...at-austria-gp/

“In the next weeks Peugeot should decide whether they come or not. But even if they do, we have to consider whether we want to go another two or three years in Le Mans."

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

Porsche 919 LMP1 and a Mclaren Porsche F1 have the same relevancy as what we all drive and have in our garages! That is to say Zero.

Originally Posted by tcsracing1

Very true.
However, for regular joes buying Panamera and Macans and Cayennes, it is not important what race or what car because they do not watch it anyhow. It is the advertizing of winning something that instills confidence of the the buyer into the brand.

Porsche = winners.

Originally Posted by tcsracing1

You would be surprised by porsche customers as much as you are disappointed in them.

The blind customers you generalize do indeed exisit however you need to look deeper into why they actually arrived at the showroom in the first place. Marketing got the blind customer through the door.
They are there because of brand. They know nothing else other then the brand is supposedly good.
The brand was built on reputation of racing and winning which came from quality engineering. Without racing it wouldnt be the brand it is today.
The brand is still marketed as such.

People are still buying the brand because it is still doing well.
When they shop websites for vehicle purchase and they see the porsche website list the race car as a winner in some big race that tends to sit well with most customers. These customs tend to think that if Porsche can win a big race then they can at least build a decent street car with the same engineers and technology. Especially the Hybrid customer.

Originally Posted by Archimedes

But it doesn't for average buyer, because the average buyer doesn't watch Lemans or really any prototype racing at all. They watch Formula 1, where they see that Ferrari and Mercedes are winners, or locally they watch IMSA, where they see Cadillac, Nissan, Chevy, Mercedes are winners... Where exactly, other than in the invisible world of Prototype racing, is Porsche consistently winning these days? Every time I turn on a race, Porsche is getting their *** kicked.

Originally Posted by Argon_

Race car marketing? Maybe when Porsche still made a majority of actual sports cars.

Now they make an assload of ULVs. The average buyer of a porsche is buying a needlessly lifted small wagon with a V6 and a planetary autobox. These small ULVs will keel over on a track faster than a fat man standing on a pencil.

Their ULVs are NOT race cars, or even racecar derived. A 135i could cane a Macan. And the 135i is a 10 year old design with a self choking engine.

Originally Posted by tcsracing1

I have been on track with a Cayenne and Macan. For SUV i was very impressed.
You can see the sports car DNA engineered into them.
Cant say the same for other SUV manufactures.