So what does this mean for 991.1 RS??
03-10-2017, 08:52 AM
#121
Drifting
Last RS - Last NA - Last 6MT - Last Rear Engine.....
03-10-2017, 11:26 AM
#122
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
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^ u forgot last mezger
so the train took
off already
rs 4,0
so the train took
off already
rs 4,0
03-10-2017, 01:42 PM
#123
991 RS is special. I know that because I got rid of my 991.1 GT3 for the RS. I dont feel that the 991.2 GT3 is anything special compared to the RS. If/When the 991.2 RS comes out, maybe delivery of fall of 2018, then we can discuss. I'll enjoy my 991 RS for now.
IMO, RS should not be compared with GT3s
IMO, RS should not be compared with GT3s
03-10-2017, 03:27 PM
#124
991 RS is special. I know that because I got rid of my 991.1 GT3 for the RS. I dont feel that the 991.2 GT3 is anything special compared to the RS. If/When the 991.2 RS comes out, maybe delivery of fall of 2018, then we can discuss. I'll enjoy my 991 RS for now.
IMO, RS should not be compared with GT3s
IMO, RS should not be compared with GT3s
^^100% same perspective. I had no idea how different the RS felt/drove from my 991.1 GT3 until I drove it spiritedly for the first time. Handling, grip, response, feel and most importantly fun factor... are other major factors that differentiate my GT3 from my RS having nothing to do with the horsepower difference. But that's just my personal experience from owning both. I can't speak for other people that have experience in the RS. Its a different model for a reason. At this point the only upgrade from my RS would be a .2 RS. Otherwise, and I've never said this before, my RS is a lifer. I rarely ever drive my Huracan anymore because of it. Boo hoo right?
03-10-2017, 03:42 PM
#126
Nordschleife Master
i think there will be 991.2RS and .1RS will plummet in price
i gather msrp - 50k for PTS low mile cars
non pts cars you should just donate to charity, the next tax savings will be financially supeirior than selling outright. and u will be rewarded with moral victory as well
should u have PTS RS for sale, i am a ready buyer at msrp - 50k any day of the week
i gather msrp - 50k for PTS low mile cars
non pts cars you should just donate to charity, the next tax savings will be financially supeirior than selling outright. and u will be rewarded with moral victory as well
should u have PTS RS for sale, i am a ready buyer at msrp - 50k any day of the week
03-10-2017, 09:59 PM
#127
First off the engine in a new GT3 is not a "race engine". It is based on the same platform and utilizes the same or similar components. But if you think you can take the engine out of a standard GT3 and drop it in a GT 3R or RSR you are mistaken or naïve .
The new GT three is not a "race car". If you think it is you are again mistaken or naïve. It is a street/track performance car.
While through "your eyes" the 991.2 GT3 is more desirable than 991.1 GT3RS it is by far not how my eyes see it. Not even close.
If you have to have 9000 RPMs and a solid valve drain (which supposedly will need no maintenance an historic first) you now have your car. According to AP The new GT3 is the best GT3 they have made to date. I would expect him to say nothing less nor would I expect Porsche to come out with a car that wasn't better than the previous model. Of course AP also stated in the interview that the previous generation GT3 and RS are also a great cars. Which they are.
As to future values. All speculation. Very simply I expect large markups on the new GT3.2. At least 25000 to 30,000 over MSRP. This will keep 991.1 GT3 values stable and keep GT3 RS prices where they are or perhaps slightly higher.
Sounds like you would be one of those guys back in 2010 that through your 2007 997.1 RS under the bus for the new 2010 GT3. Bet all those guys wish they could get that one back.
By the way just in case you didn't know all previous street 996 GT3 and 997 GT3's were hydraulic valve train motors.
I'll stick with my antiquated 991 GT3 RS with its hydraulic valve train 8600 rpm engine all any day over the new GT3 any day.
in fact my dealer asked me if I would be interested in a new GT3. I said no. I have zero interest in the car compared to my RS. I am currently on the list for the GT two RS and will wait for that one and decide.
As I've said before there are approximately 3500 RS worldwide. I have done the calculations. Furthermore it seems fairly well-established that there are approximately 1400 RS in the US and Canada. This is the only relevant number to me living in the United States. I could not care less how many RS are in Germany Switzerland Asia Taiwan UK etc. Especially the right hand drive cars.
P.S. I expect the 991 RS to still be faster than the new GT3 on most tracks.
The new GT three is not a "race car". If you think it is you are again mistaken or naïve. It is a street/track performance car.
While through "your eyes" the 991.2 GT3 is more desirable than 991.1 GT3RS it is by far not how my eyes see it. Not even close.
If you have to have 9000 RPMs and a solid valve drain (which supposedly will need no maintenance an historic first) you now have your car. According to AP The new GT3 is the best GT3 they have made to date. I would expect him to say nothing less nor would I expect Porsche to come out with a car that wasn't better than the previous model. Of course AP also stated in the interview that the previous generation GT3 and RS are also a great cars. Which they are.
As to future values. All speculation. Very simply I expect large markups on the new GT3.2. At least 25000 to 30,000 over MSRP. This will keep 991.1 GT3 values stable and keep GT3 RS prices where they are or perhaps slightly higher.
Sounds like you would be one of those guys back in 2010 that through your 2007 997.1 RS under the bus for the new 2010 GT3. Bet all those guys wish they could get that one back.
By the way just in case you didn't know all previous street 996 GT3 and 997 GT3's were hydraulic valve train motors.
I'll stick with my antiquated 991 GT3 RS with its hydraulic valve train 8600 rpm engine all any day over the new GT3 any day.
in fact my dealer asked me if I would be interested in a new GT3. I said no. I have zero interest in the car compared to my RS. I am currently on the list for the GT two RS and will wait for that one and decide.As I've said before there are approximately 3500 RS worldwide. I have done the calculations. Furthermore it seems fairly well-established that there are approximately 1400 RS in the US and Canada. This is the only relevant number to me living in the United States. I could not care less how many RS are in Germany Switzerland Asia Taiwan UK etc. Especially the right hand drive cars.
P.S. I expect the 991 RS to still be faster than the new GT3 on most tracks.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-g...-new-gt3/35880
AP's words
"Go on!
"Definitely the biggest step we took forward with this car was the engine itself, we have this new engine platform that we introduced with the 3.8 991 GT3 and then the 4.0-litre RS and now the 4.0 GT3 engine second generation ... it's a quantum leap and even a big step up from the RS engine. Technology goes on and we learn from the track because that kind of engine family we use in the GT3 R, in the race car it's the same family, we are on the same engine platform and the same technology and lots of parts in the second generation are in the race car. It's absolutely the same engine as in the new Cup car, for example. Last year's Cup car had a Mezger engine but now we are at full strategy fulfilment and have all our motorsport engines on one platform, even the new RSR."
03-10-2017, 10:07 PM
#128
To me and many, the heart is the most important component in a GT3 series car.
The same engine platform (might have different material on certain parts due to difference in tolerance criteria on a race car) as a race car.
The 991.1 RS don't have that so I believe it won't be desired by a collector in the future. Anyone wants a 991 RS in his collection will simply go for the 991.2 RS.
The same engine platform (might have different material on certain parts due to difference in tolerance criteria on a race car) as a race car.
The 991.1 RS don't have that so I believe it won't be desired by a collector in the future. Anyone wants a 991 RS in his collection will simply go for the 991.2 RS.
03-11-2017, 07:38 AM
#129
Rennlist Member
It does indeed look like the GT3 991.1 engine is a MAJOR step forward in design over the RS BUT we will only know this for real when road tests and deliveries start
Last edited by Richard.; 03-11-2017 at 02:29 PM.
03-11-2017, 03:26 PM
#130
To me and many, the heart is the most important component in a GT3 series car.
The same engine platform (might have different material on certain parts due to difference in tolerance criteria on a race car) as a race car.
The 991.1 RS don't have that so I believe it won't be desired by a collector in the future. Anyone wants a 991 RS in his collection will simply go for the 991.2 RS.
The same engine platform (might have different material on certain parts due to difference in tolerance criteria on a race car) as a race car.
The 991.1 RS don't have that so I believe it won't be desired by a collector in the future. Anyone wants a 991 RS in his collection will simply go for the 991.2 RS.
RS is always RS, dosen't matter what engine platform ...
03-11-2017, 04:50 PM
#133
Race Car
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03-11-2017, 04:59 PM
#134
Nordschleife Master
Lets see if we can put a little light on this shall we and cut through all the hyperbole and misnomers.
Hydraulic lifters self-compensate for valvetrain clearances for maintenance-free service. Travel in the hydraulic mechanism soaks up variations in production tolerances and self-adjust to zero lash. They are also quieter than solid lifters.
A lot of performance cars, in fact I believe the vast majority of modern performance cars come with hydraulic valve train motors including the previous generation GT3’s with the Mezgers. It was only in race application that PAG used solid lifters historically. Other examples of hydraulic valved performance street track cars… all 997’s, all 991’s., GT4, all Boxster’s and Caymans, Ferraris back to the late 355s, Corvettes, Lambo’s, Vipers, Mac’s, R8’s, AMG GT and AMG GTR, Vipers, M3’s and M4’s, GT350s, :’17 Mustang GT4, Boss 302 (‘12& ’13) including the R and S.
As you increase engine rpm limits or require higher rpm limits hydraulic valve trains reach their limitations. This is because under the stresses of high rpm, the hydraulic piston, which serves to zero-out the clearances in normal operation, can either pump up or bleed down.
Solid lifters are as the name implies-solid. There is no internal mechanism to take up clearance, and in fact, they require clearance to operate properly. This clearance is called the valve lash. As the cam comes around to the base circle, the lifter must unload the valvetrain and allow the valve to close. This occurs at zero lash, but some additional clearance is needed to give the solid-lifter valvetrain a little wiggle room to compensate for dimensional changes due to heat expansion. Lash is adjusted with wear or as setting fall out of adjustment. However, as RPMs rise so does valve spring pressure requirements leading to potential wear.
Go to minute 4:13.
It's not that solid lifter engines are "better". They are capable of reaching higher rpms due to lack of hydraulic issues but on the down side require higher pressure springs to compensate for the higher rpms leading to potential earlier wear.
The current .2 GT3 4.0L puts out the same performance power specs as the .1 4.0L with a 400 rpm higher red line. In my mind not that much difference.
They were running the 4.0L motor in the GT3R from the street GT3RS motor beginning in 2015. The GT3R red line was set at 8500 rpm.
This from PAG web site:
Powering the new 911 GT3 R is a cutting-edge four-litre flat-six unit which is largely identical to the high-performance production engine of the road-legal 911 GT3 RS. Direct petrol injection, which operates at pressures up to 200 bar, as well as variable valve timing technology ensure a particularly efficient use of fuel. Moreover, the normally-aspirated engine offers significantly better driveability and a broader usable rev range. Power from the rear engine is transferred to the 310 mm rear wheels via a Porsche sequential six-speed constant-mesh gearbox. As in the GT road-going models of the 911, the driver changes gears via shift paddles conveniently positioned on the steering wheel.
Engine:
◾Water-cooled six-cylinder boxer engine (rear mounted)
◾4,000 cm3; stroke 81.5 mm; bore 102 mm
◾Output: over 368 kW (500 hp) subject to FIA BoP (air restrictor)
◾Four-valve technology
◾Direct fuel injection
◾Dry sump lubrication
Also, ths from Car & Driver in 2015:
Just like its predecessor, the GT3 R is again powered by a 4.0-liter flat-six engine shared with a production model. In this case, the engine donor is the epic 911 GT3 RS, meaning the GT3 R gets direct fuel injection, dry-sump lubrication, and at least 500 horsepower. That muscle is routed to the rear wheels via a six-speed sequential transmission and a mechanical limited-slip differential, and racing-specific anti-lock braking and traction-control systems help keep things in check.
This from Autoweek May 2015.
We suspect the naturally aspirated 4.0-liter six-cylinder boxer engine out back, good for “over” 500 hp, sounds glorious as well. It’s the same motor you’ll find in the 911 GT3 RS. There’s no manual option -- just a sequential six-speed constant-mesh gearbox -- but we can’t complain, for once, because shaving fractions of seconds off lap times is this car’s raison d’être. Power is channeled to the rear wheels through a mechanical limited-slip differentia.
Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...#ixzz4b30WhN9n
So it appears that the 4.0L hydrraulic lump did see competition (and with zero reported failures) and it would appear that PAG switched at some point to solid tappets used in the RSR for the Gen 2 "G" openning the door to even higher rpms in the future as the .2 now reves to 9000 where as the 2015 GT3R red lined at 8500 rpm and the current GT3R and Cup still interestingly red line at 8500 rpm. Perhaps PAG feels that they can get away with stiffer springs on the street version due to the fact they likely will not be seeing the constant and extended higher rpms of the race versions thus the stiffer springs are not an issue with premature wear.
Further, GT3RS's have been pounded at the track in large numbers since early 2015 with zero reported valve train failures. Our own Peter/Trakcar, Koblat have and others have thousands and thousands track miles on thehir GT3RS's.
Further, and importantly hydraulic valued motorsport heritage for the 9A1 DFI engines is also established by the GT4 Club sports which use the 991S 3.8L lump now competing in the Continenntal Sports car series in GTS. Our own CJ Wilson is campaigning a pair of GT4s.
Also, regardless of what AP said in his sales video the new .2GT3 is not the same identical engine as in the Cup. Its the same engine but there are some internal differences. Trust me. The Cup does not even rev to 9000. Only 8500. Clearly some internal variations for raciing and the demands of racing.
None of us who own a GT3 or GTRS of any generation have a "race car".
Hydraulic lifters self-compensate for valvetrain clearances for maintenance-free service. Travel in the hydraulic mechanism soaks up variations in production tolerances and self-adjust to zero lash. They are also quieter than solid lifters.
A lot of performance cars, in fact I believe the vast majority of modern performance cars come with hydraulic valve train motors including the previous generation GT3’s with the Mezgers. It was only in race application that PAG used solid lifters historically. Other examples of hydraulic valved performance street track cars… all 997’s, all 991’s., GT4, all Boxster’s and Caymans, Ferraris back to the late 355s, Corvettes, Lambo’s, Vipers, Mac’s, R8’s, AMG GT and AMG GTR, Vipers, M3’s and M4’s, GT350s, :’17 Mustang GT4, Boss 302 (‘12& ’13) including the R and S.
As you increase engine rpm limits or require higher rpm limits hydraulic valve trains reach their limitations. This is because under the stresses of high rpm, the hydraulic piston, which serves to zero-out the clearances in normal operation, can either pump up or bleed down.
Solid lifters are as the name implies-solid. There is no internal mechanism to take up clearance, and in fact, they require clearance to operate properly. This clearance is called the valve lash. As the cam comes around to the base circle, the lifter must unload the valvetrain and allow the valve to close. This occurs at zero lash, but some additional clearance is needed to give the solid-lifter valvetrain a little wiggle room to compensate for dimensional changes due to heat expansion. Lash is adjusted with wear or as setting fall out of adjustment. However, as RPMs rise so does valve spring pressure requirements leading to potential wear.
Go to minute 4:13.
It's not that solid lifter engines are "better". They are capable of reaching higher rpms due to lack of hydraulic issues but on the down side require higher pressure springs to compensate for the higher rpms leading to potential earlier wear.
The current .2 GT3 4.0L puts out the same performance power specs as the .1 4.0L with a 400 rpm higher red line. In my mind not that much difference.
They were running the 4.0L motor in the GT3R from the street GT3RS motor beginning in 2015. The GT3R red line was set at 8500 rpm.
This from PAG web site:
Powering the new 911 GT3 R is a cutting-edge four-litre flat-six unit which is largely identical to the high-performance production engine of the road-legal 911 GT3 RS. Direct petrol injection, which operates at pressures up to 200 bar, as well as variable valve timing technology ensure a particularly efficient use of fuel. Moreover, the normally-aspirated engine offers significantly better driveability and a broader usable rev range. Power from the rear engine is transferred to the 310 mm rear wheels via a Porsche sequential six-speed constant-mesh gearbox. As in the GT road-going models of the 911, the driver changes gears via shift paddles conveniently positioned on the steering wheel.
Engine:
◾Water-cooled six-cylinder boxer engine (rear mounted)
◾4,000 cm3; stroke 81.5 mm; bore 102 mm
◾Output: over 368 kW (500 hp) subject to FIA BoP (air restrictor)
◾Four-valve technology
◾Direct fuel injection
◾Dry sump lubrication
Also, ths from Car & Driver in 2015:
Just like its predecessor, the GT3 R is again powered by a 4.0-liter flat-six engine shared with a production model. In this case, the engine donor is the epic 911 GT3 RS, meaning the GT3 R gets direct fuel injection, dry-sump lubrication, and at least 500 horsepower. That muscle is routed to the rear wheels via a six-speed sequential transmission and a mechanical limited-slip differential, and racing-specific anti-lock braking and traction-control systems help keep things in check.
This from Autoweek May 2015.
We suspect the naturally aspirated 4.0-liter six-cylinder boxer engine out back, good for “over” 500 hp, sounds glorious as well. It’s the same motor you’ll find in the 911 GT3 RS. There’s no manual option -- just a sequential six-speed constant-mesh gearbox -- but we can’t complain, for once, because shaving fractions of seconds off lap times is this car’s raison d’être. Power is channeled to the rear wheels through a mechanical limited-slip differentia.
Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...#ixzz4b30WhN9n
So it appears that the 4.0L hydrraulic lump did see competition (and with zero reported failures) and it would appear that PAG switched at some point to solid tappets used in the RSR for the Gen 2 "G" openning the door to even higher rpms in the future as the .2 now reves to 9000 where as the 2015 GT3R red lined at 8500 rpm and the current GT3R and Cup still interestingly red line at 8500 rpm. Perhaps PAG feels that they can get away with stiffer springs on the street version due to the fact they likely will not be seeing the constant and extended higher rpms of the race versions thus the stiffer springs are not an issue with premature wear.
Further, GT3RS's have been pounded at the track in large numbers since early 2015 with zero reported valve train failures. Our own Peter/Trakcar, Koblat have and others have thousands and thousands track miles on thehir GT3RS's.
Further, and importantly hydraulic valued motorsport heritage for the 9A1 DFI engines is also established by the GT4 Club sports which use the 991S 3.8L lump now competing in the Continenntal Sports car series in GTS. Our own CJ Wilson is campaigning a pair of GT4s.
Also, regardless of what AP said in his sales video the new .2GT3 is not the same identical engine as in the Cup. Its the same engine but there are some internal differences. Trust me. The Cup does not even rev to 9000. Only 8500. Clearly some internal variations for raciing and the demands of racing.
None of us who own a GT3 or GTRS of any generation have a "race car".