911R 4 SALE in FL
08-28-2016, 11:48 AM
#106
How many were in the VIP program? 297 cars in the USA and 32 in Canada but many has multiples so not much over 300 between USA and Canada.
How many RS were produced again? Thousands.
How long has it been in production? Since last May, over a year now.
The 918 VIPs didn't hog all the RSs, if you want to bitch about someone flipping the RSs, go blame the dealers. the VIPs only took slightly over 300 RSs, there were many more to go around but the dealers don't want to let them go to any other average Joe at MSRP, they are greedy and hogged the allocations and jacked them up with market adjustments.
Mind you, quite a few dealer principals have 918s and these are the untouchables, Porsche won't dare offend them, dealers are gods in Porsche's eyes. These guys are the one that can flip to their hearts content without consequences all because they are dealers. We normal 918 VIPs don't really like them as they give us a bad name. They are dealers first and VIPs second, so go blame the dealers and not the VIP program. Even without the VIP program these dealers will still hog all the allocations and sell them at market price to gouge YOU and everyone else.
If you can't get an RS, blame the greedy dealers.
How many RS were produced again? Thousands.
How long has it been in production? Since last May, over a year now.
The 918 VIPs didn't hog all the RSs, if you want to bitch about someone flipping the RSs, go blame the dealers. the VIPs only took slightly over 300 RSs, there were many more to go around but the dealers don't want to let them go to any other average Joe at MSRP, they are greedy and hogged the allocations and jacked them up with market adjustments.
Mind you, quite a few dealer principals have 918s and these are the untouchables, Porsche won't dare offend them, dealers are gods in Porsche's eyes. These guys are the one that can flip to their hearts content without consequences all because they are dealers. We normal 918 VIPs don't really like them as they give us a bad name. They are dealers first and VIPs second, so go blame the dealers and not the VIP program. Even without the VIP program these dealers will still hog all the allocations and sell them at market price to gouge YOU and everyone else.
If you can't get an RS, blame the greedy dealers.
Seems logical.
08-28-2016, 12:32 PM
#107
And I will add from my own perspective regarding the secondary market with the RS': it is also the dealerships that are buying these cars at the premium and then tacking on another 4-5% mu to get you over the 300k mark. They need and want inventory as well as have the money to carry the inventory. So pay the private party premium if you want to get into the car or don't, but don't throw all the blame on the 918 VIP program.
08-28-2016, 12:47 PM
#108
Race Director
Thread Starter
I could give a rats *** about the RS, R, dealers, flippers, or VIP'ers. I don't mean to hurt any sensitive feelings.
The point of the "R" being some magical unicorn is all marketing and limited production. It's a model that any enthusiast should be able to go in and order in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's just a sum of all the current parts already available overall.
That's the funny part of the frenzy. It's all manufactured Porsche marketing at its best. That's the whole point of this thread. Don't want to turn it into a VIP lynching. They bought a 918 with some perks, so good for them. Who cares.
Found it amusing that it was mentioned PCNA is somehow not happy with R flipping but could care less about dealers charging outrageous $$ for RS's.
The point of the "R" being some magical unicorn is all marketing and limited production. It's a model that any enthusiast should be able to go in and order in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's just a sum of all the current parts already available overall.
That's the funny part of the frenzy. It's all manufactured Porsche marketing at its best. That's the whole point of this thread. Don't want to turn it into a VIP lynching. They bought a 918 with some perks, so good for them. Who cares.
Found it amusing that it was mentioned PCNA is somehow not happy with R flipping but could care less about dealers charging outrageous $$ for RS's.
Last edited by STG; 08-28-2016 at 01:03 PM.
08-28-2016, 12:49 PM
#109
Three Wheelin'
How many were in the VIP program? 297 cars in the USA and 32 in Canada but many has multiples so not much over 300 between USA and Canada.
How many RS were produced again? Thousands.
How long has it been in production? Since last May, over a year now.
The 918 VIPs didn't hog all the RSs, if you want to bitch about someone flipping the RSs, go blame the dealers. the VIPs only took slightly over 300 RSs, there were many more to go around but the dealers don't want to let them go to any other average Joe at MSRP, they are greedy and hogged the allocations and jacked them up with market adjustments.
Mind you, quite a few dealer principals have 918s and these are the untouchables, Porsche won't dare offend them, dealers are gods in Porsche's eyes. These guys are the one that can flip to their hearts content without consequences all because they are dealers. We normal 918 VIPs don't really like them as they give us a bad name. They are dealers first and VIPs second, so go blame the dealers and not the VIP program. Even without the VIP program these dealers will still hog all the allocations and sell them at market price to gouge YOU and everyone else.
If you can't get an RS, blame the greedy dealers.
How many RS were produced again? Thousands.
How long has it been in production? Since last May, over a year now.
The 918 VIPs didn't hog all the RSs, if you want to bitch about someone flipping the RSs, go blame the dealers. the VIPs only took slightly over 300 RSs, there were many more to go around but the dealers don't want to let them go to any other average Joe at MSRP, they are greedy and hogged the allocations and jacked them up with market adjustments.
Mind you, quite a few dealer principals have 918s and these are the untouchables, Porsche won't dare offend them, dealers are gods in Porsche's eyes. These guys are the one that can flip to their hearts content without consequences all because they are dealers. We normal 918 VIPs don't really like them as they give us a bad name. They are dealers first and VIPs second, so go blame the dealers and not the VIP program. Even without the VIP program these dealers will still hog all the allocations and sell them at market price to gouge YOU and everyone else.
If you can't get an RS, blame the greedy dealers.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
08-28-2016, 01:02 PM
#110
PCNA
YTD 2016 sales thru July 2016 up 2.4% year-over-year (2015 in this case)
YTD 2015 sales thru July 2015 up 10% year-over-year (2014 in this case)
The party is slowing down. Trust me, they're concerned. If sales get worse, they'll be even more worried about these games.
....
YTD 2016 sales thru July 2016 up 2.4% year-over-year (2015 in this case)
YTD 2015 sales thru July 2015 up 10% year-over-year (2014 in this case)
The party is slowing down. Trust me, they're concerned. If sales get worse, they'll be even more worried about these games.
....
08-28-2016, 02:33 PM
#112
Burning Brakes
How many were in the VIP program? 297 cars in the USA and 32 in Canada but many has multiples so not much over 300 between USA and Canada. How many RS were produced again? Thousands. How long has it been in production? Since last May, over a year now. The 918 VIPs didn't hog all the RSs, if you want to bitch about someone flipping the RSs, go blame the dealers. the VIPs only took slightly over 300 RSs, there were many more to go around but the dealers don't want to let them go to any other average Joe at MSRP, they are greedy and hogged the allocations and jacked them up with market adjustments. Mind you, quite a few dealer principals have 918s and these are the untouchables, Porsche won't dare offend them, dealers are gods in Porsche's eyes. These guys are the one that can flip to their hearts content without consequences all because they are dealers. We normal 918 VIPs don't really like them as they give us a bad name. They are dealers first and VIPs second, so go blame the dealers and not the VIP program. Even without the VIP program these dealers will still hog all the allocations and sell them at market price to gouge YOU and everyone else. If you can't get an RS, blame the greedy dealers.
This. Same thing happens in Ferrari world. They have been steadily increasing production for 10 years and yet whenever a new model comes out the market can't have enough?
It's called inside baseball, shell buyers on behalf of the dealers, their pawns if you will. It's a simple game. Place the cars with great customers, employees and friends who you know will play ball. Then, offer them msrp in 6 mos or whatever the required holding period is for Porsche NA to be satisfied + a new allocation (to repeat the process). You then sell the "used" car for "market price" and never really start working down the wait list because the dealership VIPs are jumping ahead. You can even dummy up the names you report as the buyer to make it hard to track. All of this artificially restricts supply and creates the market dynamics we are not witnessing in the Porsche world.
Enjoy.
08-28-2016, 02:38 PM
#113
Three Wheelin'
I could give a rats *** about the RS, R, dealers, flippers, or VIP'ers. I don't mean to hurt any sensitive feelings.
The point of the "R" being some magical unicorn is all marketing and limited production. It's a model that any enthusiast should be able to go in and order in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's just a sum of all the current parts already available overall.
That's the funny part of the frenzy. It's all manufactured Porsche marketing at its best. That's the whole point of this thread. Don't want to turn it into a VIP lynching. They bought a 918 with some perks, so good for them. Who cares.
Found it amusing that it was mentioned PCNA is somehow not happy with R flipping but could care less about dealers charging outrageous $$ for RS's.
The point of the "R" being some magical unicorn is all marketing and limited production. It's a model that any enthusiast should be able to go in and order in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's just a sum of all the current parts already available overall.
That's the funny part of the frenzy. It's all manufactured Porsche marketing at its best. That's the whole point of this thread. Don't want to turn it into a VIP lynching. They bought a 918 with some perks, so good for them. Who cares.
Found it amusing that it was mentioned PCNA is somehow not happy with R flipping but could care less about dealers charging outrageous $$ for RS's.
08-28-2016, 02:49 PM
#114
The VIP program has sucked up most all of the 911Rs, probably by virtue of its limited #. It pisses me off I can't buy one, but I don't fault the VIPs. Hopefully, PCNA will have learned a thing or two from this program. Nonetheless, it DOES leave a sour taste.
Although PCNA needs its dealers and values them, there is undeniable tension in the relationship, so the characterization of it being a love-fest is incorrect. Porsche, like all brands (esp. Hi-Lines) has cut vehicle margins in favor of "bonus programs" wherein the factory makes the dealer jump through hoops to achieve CSI, SSI, and the like to earn what was formerly pure gross margin on the vehicle sale. Not all dealers get the back-end money. Even those who do are sacrificing margin in other areas (service, front-end gross, etc.) to keep the customer sat. scores "above the line." This is a source of contention between the factories and dealers.
Porsche may look the other way when dealers sell above MSRP, but it's not doing the brand any good, just as cheap-selling cars hurts the brand (more common to domestics). I don't think Porsche is ready to crack down on dealers over the practice for now, but I'm sure they're not big fans of it.
Dealers collecting a big second sticker from a customer has a downside too: The customer will likely expect a "great deal" on their next Porsche. Or worse, they risk its future relationship with the customer, who may well sour on paying an extra $50k over MSRP after the buzz wears off and resale sinks.
Although PCNA needs its dealers and values them, there is undeniable tension in the relationship, so the characterization of it being a love-fest is incorrect. Porsche, like all brands (esp. Hi-Lines) has cut vehicle margins in favor of "bonus programs" wherein the factory makes the dealer jump through hoops to achieve CSI, SSI, and the like to earn what was formerly pure gross margin on the vehicle sale. Not all dealers get the back-end money. Even those who do are sacrificing margin in other areas (service, front-end gross, etc.) to keep the customer sat. scores "above the line." This is a source of contention between the factories and dealers.
Porsche may look the other way when dealers sell above MSRP, but it's not doing the brand any good, just as cheap-selling cars hurts the brand (more common to domestics). I don't think Porsche is ready to crack down on dealers over the practice for now, but I'm sure they're not big fans of it.
Dealers collecting a big second sticker from a customer has a downside too: The customer will likely expect a "great deal" on their next Porsche. Or worse, they risk its future relationship with the customer, who may well sour on paying an extra $50k over MSRP after the buzz wears off and resale sinks.
08-28-2016, 02:53 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Found it amusing that it was mentioned PCNA is somehow not happy with R flipping but could care less about dealers charging outrageous $$ for RS's.
The dealers are absolutely not happy that private sellers, aka VIPs are taking advantage of the inflated market price and pocketing the profit, leaving them out of the loop for the money gained. Collectively they feel like ALL profits from selling cars rightfully belongs to them and not customers. The abuse clause was put into the VIP program to pleased the dealers. The VIPs and the dealers had behind the scene fights with Porsche about that, the VIPs lost because the dealers are......dealers. At the end of the day, humans are all naturally greedy, and US dealers are the greediest of them all.
Canadian dealers at least are forbidden to sell new cars above MSRP, be it Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghinis or McLarens. Start writing to your Congressman and have them take up that fight for you in Washington.
08-28-2016, 03:00 PM
#116
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Exactly why Porsche is putting manual back into the GT3 next year AND putting a better 4.0L engine in it. The R at the end of the day is just a parts bin special beta testing car for the transmission and diffuser tray.
Because the dealers ARE untouchables. They are the ACTUAL customers of PCNA and by extension Porsche AG. We end users are just customers of DEALERS.
Because the dealers ARE untouchables. They are the ACTUAL customers of PCNA and by extension Porsche AG. We end users are just customers of DEALERS.
Your logic on the second point is flawed. Dealers are merely part of the supply chain. Franchised dealers in the US like most McDonalds.
Without those check writing end buyers, PAG/PCNA/Dealers have $0
Who is Porsche marketing to in order to sell cars?? The dealers or potential car buyers?? If they have buyers, dealers will jump on board in order to sell the brand. If the brand sucks, dealers will drop it.
08-28-2016, 03:03 PM
#117
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by n2cars
Calm down STG. Did you forget to take your meds today? You're a little surly this early in the day
Have any for sale?? Just no "black market pricing" or med flippers please.
08-28-2016, 03:06 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
I don't think Porsche is ready to crack down on dealers over the practice for now, but I'm sure they're not big fans of it.
08-28-2016, 03:06 PM
#119
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by WernerE
The VIP program has sucked up most all of the 911Rs, probably by virtue of its limited #. It pisses me off I can't buy one, but I don't fault the VIPs. Hopefully, PCNA will have learned a thing or two from this program. Nonetheless, it DOES leave a sour taste.
Although PCNA needs its dealers and values them, there is undeniable tension in the relationship, so the characterization of it being a love-fest is incorrect. Porsche, like all brands (esp. Hi-Lines) has cut vehicle margins in favor of "bonus programs" wherein the factory makes the dealer jump through hoops to achieve CSI, SSI, and the like to earn what was formerly pure gross margin on the vehicle sale. Not all dealers get the back-end money. Even those who do are sacrificing margin in other areas (service, front-end gross, etc.) to keep the customer sat. scores "above the line." This is a source of contention between the factories and dealers.
Porsche may look the other way when dealers sell above MSRP, but it's not doing the brand any good, just as cheap-selling cars hurts the brand (more common to domestics). I don't think Porsche is ready to crack down on dealers over the practice for now, but I'm sure they're not big fans of it.
Dealers collecting a big second sticker from a customer has a downside too: The customer will likely expect a "great deal" on their next Porsche. Or worse, they risk its future relationship with the customer, who may well sour on paying an extra $50k over MSRP after the buzz wears off and resale sinks.
Although PCNA needs its dealers and values them, there is undeniable tension in the relationship, so the characterization of it being a love-fest is incorrect. Porsche, like all brands (esp. Hi-Lines) has cut vehicle margins in favor of "bonus programs" wherein the factory makes the dealer jump through hoops to achieve CSI, SSI, and the like to earn what was formerly pure gross margin on the vehicle sale. Not all dealers get the back-end money. Even those who do are sacrificing margin in other areas (service, front-end gross, etc.) to keep the customer sat. scores "above the line." This is a source of contention between the factories and dealers.
Porsche may look the other way when dealers sell above MSRP, but it's not doing the brand any good, just as cheap-selling cars hurts the brand (more common to domestics). I don't think Porsche is ready to crack down on dealers over the practice for now, but I'm sure they're not big fans of it.
Dealers collecting a big second sticker from a customer has a downside too: The customer will likely expect a "great deal" on their next Porsche. Or worse, they risk its future relationship with the customer, who may well sour on paying an extra $50k over MSRP after the buzz wears off and resale sinks.
Great post and insight
