Ford GT or 991 GT3 RS
06-16-2016, 08:08 PM
#76
As a counterpoint, require the cars to participate in stock trim except for safety components and the Ford GT would crush the Ferrari Porsche and the Corvette. Fine, so the GT can't show up until next year, but that would be the result. Everybody always complains that the equalization factors favor the other guy. The fact of the matter is that the Ford GT really is not in the same sort of classification as the GT3RS. Price power mass power and aero are vastly different.
I'll confess I am not well informed, but doesn't the Ford GT have restrictors on its intake and/or boost limits? Surely it is not allowed to run as much boost and airflow as Ford wants? What about race weight between the two, who carries more ballast compared to the basic configuration?
I'll confess I am not well informed, but doesn't the Ford GT have restrictors on its intake and/or boost limits? Surely it is not allowed to run as much boost and airflow as Ford wants? What about race weight between the two, who carries more ballast compared to the basic configuration?
06-16-2016, 08:22 PM
#78
Drifting
As a counterpoint, require the cars to participate in stock trim except for safety components and the Ford GT would crush the Ferrari Porsche and the Corvette. Fine, so the GT can't show up until next year, but that would be the result. Everybody always complains that the equalization factors favor the other guy. The fact of the matter is that the Ford GT really is not in the same sort of classification as the GT3RS. Price power mass power and aero are vastly different.
I'll confess I am not well informed, but doesn't the Ford GT have restrictors on its intake and/or boost limits? Surely it is not allowed to run as much boost and airflow as Ford wants? What about race weight between the two, who carries more ballast compared to the basic configuration?
I'll confess I am not well informed, but doesn't the Ford GT have restrictors on its intake and/or boost limits? Surely it is not allowed to run as much boost and airflow as Ford wants? What about race weight between the two, who carries more ballast compared to the basic configuration?
They are the favorites, with Toyota probably second. Audi has struggled this year at LM, although they won a crazy race at spa
06-16-2016, 08:37 PM
#79
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Bop is essential for sports car classes if you want a sustainable race team or paddock. Spec racing like IndyCar is another level altogether but I'm not as into that (not a chevy guy at all).
Without everyone setting money on fire- a world with zero BOP would either mean we would only race one car- the fastest one or quit for the next season and try again. Instead of wasting 1-2M figuring a car out, we'd just go buy the fastest car for 500k and the series would then be a spec series.
06-16-2016, 09:25 PM
#80
BOP is for entertainment. No way would Ferrari or Porsche go straight up against crappy Corvettes. What is the possible up side? Of course the C7R can't run the LT4 or else it would lead for 3 laps and retire. But not sure if any cars run production engines or chassis. I am pretty sure C7R is basically a silhouette car. I think Porshe tub is production? But is engine based on 991?
06-16-2016, 09:55 PM
#81
Drifting
No BOP would be terrible. That is what has been screwing F1 the last 3 seasons.
Bop is essential for sports car classes if you want a sustainable race team or paddock. Spec racing like IndyCar is another level altogether but I'm not as into that (not a chevy guy at all).
Without everyone setting money on fire- a world with zero BOP would either mean we would only race one car- the fastest one or quit for the next season and try again. Instead of wasting 1-2M figuring a car out, we'd just go buy the fastest car for 500k and the series would then be a spec series.
Bop is essential for sports car classes if you want a sustainable race team or paddock. Spec racing like IndyCar is another level altogether but I'm not as into that (not a chevy guy at all).
Without everyone setting money on fire- a world with zero BOP would either mean we would only race one car- the fastest one or quit for the next season and try again. Instead of wasting 1-2M figuring a car out, we'd just go buy the fastest car for 500k and the series would then be a spec series.
I'm not advocating for less flexibility, but more. More fidelity with respect to the street car, less emphasis on waivers and favors (we know why BMW isn't at Le Mans!).
From the standpoint of an OEM, there's an incentive to build better vehicles, not be complacent and lobby for beneficial BOP; I do understand your position, of course, as costs have skyrocketed in CTSCC, just for an example.
BOP is for entertainment. No way would Ferrari or Porsche go straight up against crappy Corvettes. What is the possible up side? Of course the C7R can't run the LT4 or else it would lead for 3 laps and retire. But not sure if any cars run production engines or chassis. I am pretty sure C7R is basically a silhouette car. I think Porshe tub is production? But is engine based on 991?
If Porsche and Ferrari and Aston Martin and so on were forced to race the Fords and Corvettes (and Vipers, potentially), do you think they'd:
Give up and admit that a mainstream domestic automaker could do a better job?
OR
Build a competitive car?
06-17-2016, 03:02 AM
#82
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I don't think what's been screwing F1 is lack of BOP; it's lack of testing/opportunities to develop power units and chassis. The stasis kills it for me. As a kid, the F1 calendar ruled my life (and my parents', consequently). I've only watched a handful of F1 races this year, but I've watched every minute of every IMSA, CTSCC and WEC race/quali/practice since Daytona. I'm not advocating for less flexibility, but more. More fidelity with respect to the street car, less emphasis on waivers and favors (we know why BMW isn't at Le Mans!). From the standpoint of an OEM, there's an incentive to build better vehicles, not be complacent and lobby for beneficial BOP; I do understand your position, of course, as costs have skyrocketed in CTSCC, just for an example. Porsche RSR engine is the split case/Mezger/GT1 block derivation, NOT the 991 GT3 engine. The GT3 R customer race car - which races in IMSA's GTD class, among others - has the 9A1 engine. If Porsche and Ferrari and Aston Martin and so on were forced to race the Fords and Corvettes (and Vipers, potentially), do you think they'd: Give up and admit that a mainstream domestic automaker could do a better job? OR Build a competitive car?
Porsche RSR engine is the split case/Mezger/GT1 block derivation, NOT the 991 GT3 engine. The GT3 R customer race car - which races in IMSA's GTD class, among others - has the 9A1 engine. If Porsche and Ferrari and Aston Martin and so on were forced to race the Fords and Corvettes (and Vipers, potentially), do you think they'd: Give up and admit that a mainstream domestic automaker could do a better job? OR Build a competitive car?Budgets affect everyone at every level. Lets face it I am a bigger McLaren F1 fanboy than anyone but when that car with carbon everything came to LM and whooped everyone as a privateer effort it rewrote the rules and all the big manufacturers went all in with 10M budgets and up from there. Now, it is rumored P/Audi are spending 100M-300M annually
06-17-2016, 06:20 AM
#83
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This is why I watch WRC 
!
!
06-17-2016, 08:06 AM
#84
Nordschleife Master
I'm no expert but it seems somewhat unfair in GTE the more I read and learn. You have Ford build and develop a race car intended for one purpose, to win at LeMans that is not really a production car. In fact, there isn't one in a customers hands now and won't be for sometime. Customers even are chosen. It's not the customer choosing the car. Morever, you have the same chance of getting one as wining some lotteries. GTE cars are supposed to be production cars accessible to the public. No? If yes it's really debatable if the NFGT fits thar criteria.
Seems like the the car Ford should have campaigned was the GT350R in GTE. At least it's a real production car.
Seems that the NFGT is a LeMans special given favors for publicity and $ reasons to increase viewership. They (Ford and WEC & race organizers want to replay 1966).
You also have Ford (from what I read) sandbagging in time trials and qualifying to avoid correct BOP adjustments and getting away with it but wouldnt you know it just fast enough to grid in the first row. Ford is now the artful dodger Enzo was.
You have Porsche not even putting their best foot forward for reasons I can't comprehend. Maybe Porsche should have put in race prepped 918s in GTE if you can campaign last years car. It makes no sense why they don't when they know Ford is running a ringer and with TTs and V8 present on a high hp track they are at a disadvantage. Just don't get it?
You have the Corvette being throttled with heavy unfair bop handicaps.
You have multiple FGTs now in the first row.
I'm a FGT fan but call bs when I see it. I think I'm seeing it and I'm dissappointed.
Seems like you can just mail in the end results.
Seems like the the car Ford should have campaigned was the GT350R in GTE. At least it's a real production car.
Seems that the NFGT is a LeMans special given favors for publicity and $ reasons to increase viewership. They (Ford and WEC & race organizers want to replay 1966).
You also have Ford (from what I read) sandbagging in time trials and qualifying to avoid correct BOP adjustments and getting away with it but wouldnt you know it just fast enough to grid in the first row. Ford is now the artful dodger Enzo was.
You have Porsche not even putting their best foot forward for reasons I can't comprehend. Maybe Porsche should have put in race prepped 918s in GTE if you can campaign last years car. It makes no sense why they don't when they know Ford is running a ringer and with TTs and V8 present on a high hp track they are at a disadvantage. Just don't get it?
You have the Corvette being throttled with heavy unfair bop handicaps.
You have multiple FGTs now in the first row.
I'm a FGT fan but call bs when I see it. I think I'm seeing it and I'm dissappointed.
Seems like you can just mail in the end results.
06-17-2016, 10:38 AM
#85
Drifting
Breaking Soap Opera News:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...e-bop-changes/
I am very surprised, as this is a (not so) tacit admission that the BOP process is fishy.
I don't have the benefit of recollection back to 1995, and any non-contemporary account will be biased, of course, but the improbable 1995 privateer F1 victory wasn't a cynical event; the response of Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, etc. from 1996-1999 was cynical, of course.
Notwithstanding the LATEST BOP from today (Friday), Ford had essentially started down the path that the aformentioned OEMs began in 1996 - they brought a gun to a knife fight and played nice until Le Mans quali one.
Unfortunately, you are exactly right on all accounts.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...e-bop-changes/
Both Ferrari and Ford will head into tomorrow’s 24 Hours of Le Mans with added weight, and power increases for both Corvette and Aston Martin, following an unprecedented pre-race Balance of Performance adjustment issued by the ACO Friday at Le Mans.
The Ferrari 488 GTE has been handed a 15kg weight increase, with the Ford GT given 10kgs of additional weight and a slight reduction in turbo boost pressures from the configuration utilized in Free Practice and Qualifying.
Both the Corvette C7.R and Aston Martin Vantage GTE, meanwhile, have been given a 0.2 mm larger air restrictor, which brings the Corvette nearly back to the specification it ran at the Le Mans Test Day.
No changes have been made to the Porsche 911 RSR.
The Ferrari and Corvette have also received a 2-liter increase in fuel capacity, in a move to equalize the stint length of the GTE-Pro cars to 14 laps.
The adjustments come in the wake of qualifying, which saw Ford and Ferrari lock out the top seven positions and the GTE-Pro class pole-sitting No. 68 Ford of Dirk Mueller nearly 4 seconds quicker than the quickest normally aspirated car.
It’s the first BoP adjustment to be made by race organizers post-qualifying in recent history and sets up a dramatic twist onto this weekend’s French endurance classic.
Cars will have only a single 45-minute warmup session tomorrow to come to grips with the changes, which impacts 11 of the 14 cars in the GTE-Pro class.
The Ferrari 488 GTE has been handed a 15kg weight increase, with the Ford GT given 10kgs of additional weight and a slight reduction in turbo boost pressures from the configuration utilized in Free Practice and Qualifying.
Both the Corvette C7.R and Aston Martin Vantage GTE, meanwhile, have been given a 0.2 mm larger air restrictor, which brings the Corvette nearly back to the specification it ran at the Le Mans Test Day.
No changes have been made to the Porsche 911 RSR.
The Ferrari and Corvette have also received a 2-liter increase in fuel capacity, in a move to equalize the stint length of the GTE-Pro cars to 14 laps.
The adjustments come in the wake of qualifying, which saw Ford and Ferrari lock out the top seven positions and the GTE-Pro class pole-sitting No. 68 Ford of Dirk Mueller nearly 4 seconds quicker than the quickest normally aspirated car.
It’s the first BoP adjustment to be made by race organizers post-qualifying in recent history and sets up a dramatic twist onto this weekend’s French endurance classic.
Cars will have only a single 45-minute warmup session tomorrow to come to grips with the changes, which impacts 11 of the 14 cars in the GTE-Pro class.
Budgets affect everyone at every level. Lets face it I am a bigger McLaren F1 fanboy than anyone but when that car with carbon everything came to LM and whooped everyone as a privateer effort it rewrote the rules and all the big manufacturers went all in with 10M budgets and up from there. Now, it is rumored P/Audi are spending 100M-300M annually
Notwithstanding the LATEST BOP from today (Friday), Ford had essentially started down the path that the aformentioned OEMs began in 1996 - they brought a gun to a knife fight and played nice until Le Mans quali one.
I'm no expert but it seems somewhat unfair in GTE the more I read and learn. You have Ford build and develop a race car intended for one purpose, to win at LeMans that is not really a production car. In fact, there isn't one in a customers hands now and won't be for sometime. Customers even are chosen. It's not the customer choosing the car. Morever, you have the same chance of getting one as wining some lotteries. GTE cars are supposed to be production cars accessible to the public. No? If yes it's really debatable if the NFGT fits thar criteria.
Seems like the the car Ford should have campaigned was the GT350R in GTE. At least it's a real production car.
Seems that the NFGT is a LeMans special given favors for publicity and $ reasons to increase viewership. They (Ford and WEC & race organizers want to replay 1966).
You also have Ford (from what I read) sandbagging in time trials and qualifying to avoid correct BOP adjustments and getting away with it but wouldnt you know it just fast enough to grid in the first row. Ford is now the artful dodger Enzo was.
You have Porsche not even putting their best foot forward for reasons I can't comprehend. Maybe Porsche should have put in race prepped 918s in GTE if you can campaign last years car. It makes no sense why they don't when they know Ford is running a ringer and with TTs and V8 present on a high hp track they are at a disadvantage. Just don't get it?
You have the Corvette being throttled with heavy unfair bop handicaps.
You have multiple FGTs now in the first row.
I'm a FGT fan but call bs when I see it. I think I'm seeing it and I'm dissappointed.
Seems like you can just mail in the end results.
Seems like the the car Ford should have campaigned was the GT350R in GTE. At least it's a real production car.
Seems that the NFGT is a LeMans special given favors for publicity and $ reasons to increase viewership. They (Ford and WEC & race organizers want to replay 1966).
You also have Ford (from what I read) sandbagging in time trials and qualifying to avoid correct BOP adjustments and getting away with it but wouldnt you know it just fast enough to grid in the first row. Ford is now the artful dodger Enzo was.
You have Porsche not even putting their best foot forward for reasons I can't comprehend. Maybe Porsche should have put in race prepped 918s in GTE if you can campaign last years car. It makes no sense why they don't when they know Ford is running a ringer and with TTs and V8 present on a high hp track they are at a disadvantage. Just don't get it?
You have the Corvette being throttled with heavy unfair bop handicaps.
You have multiple FGTs now in the first row.
I'm a FGT fan but call bs when I see it. I think I'm seeing it and I'm dissappointed.
Seems like you can just mail in the end results.
06-17-2016, 05:47 PM
#86
Race Car
This Just in!
Ford GT - They have claimed the 24 Heures du Mans GTE Pro pole position after a pair of rainy qualifying sessions today, thanks to Dirk Müller's 3:51.185 lap in yesterday's qualifying session. It will be an all-Ford GT front row, as the No. 69 #FordGT will start second.
Ford GT - They have claimed the 24 Heures du Mans GTE Pro pole position after a pair of rainy qualifying sessions today, thanks to Dirk Müller's 3:51.185 lap in yesterday's qualifying session. It will be an all-Ford GT front row, as the No. 69 #FordGT will start second.
06-17-2016, 07:26 PM
#87
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Guest89 - the mclaren F1 at the time was a 1M roadcar which would be like me showing up with a P1GTR of today. The car was amazing and budgets were way lower then but what that triggered was a "never again" response from Porsche (996 GT1) and the other big prototype teams. The F1 won because it had outright aero advantage in straight line, and because there were crashes and failures from the cars at the time who were favored.
Either way this FGT is a bad *** car. I'm sure the 2017 Porsche will be on a much higher level...what car will it be based on is the question...
Either way this FGT is a bad *** car. I'm sure the 2017 Porsche will be on a much higher level...what car will it be based on is the question...