Next GT3--expect sub-7:18 Ring time
01-16-2016, 08:18 AM
#76
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Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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8800 8600 8500 ...
500RPM are not a little difference
01-16-2016, 09:16 AM
#78
^^^ 960 = baby 918 vs 21st century 928?
Too much overlap with the 991, nowadays, for the latter to make sense. Baby 918 in the 200s may have a market, albeit limited. Maybe this is where the Dieselgate paranoia may have legs - you could argue such an expensive, low volume, niche car may not fit the current climate at VAG?
You will probably have 911s being routinely outgunned by sedans over the next few gens, if they remain NA. It's just not a viable long term competitive platform, IMO, and the 911 will become a nostalgia act -- like a Morgan.
Too much overlap with the 991, nowadays, for the latter to make sense. Baby 918 in the 200s may have a market, albeit limited. Maybe this is where the Dieselgate paranoia may have legs - you could argue such an expensive, low volume, niche car may not fit the current climate at VAG?
You will probably have 911s being routinely outgunned by sedans over the next few gens, if they remain NA. It's just not a viable long term competitive platform, IMO, and the 911 will become a nostalgia act -- like a Morgan.
01-16-2016, 09:58 AM
#79
options: GT3- already has PDK, DFI and "lighter weight options"- still slower than other cars but heartier, stronger, less prone to failures etc. The GT3 has become the "1960's mercedes" or "tank" of it's class, you cannot kill it unless you drive it into a wall. Other cars will be faster but will not last as long... GT2- we have not seen this yet and will likely (historically) see this before the .2 version of the GT3...will make 30-40 more HP stock vs Turbo GT3RS 991.2- only way to make it faster is to start deleting things, make it lighter and it will be faster. in order to give it more power, you would have to change the fundamental durability vs performance vs flexibility of the engine. They can do something with the transmission to make it even better. They can make the brakes even more aggressive. A more active suspension perhaps. GT2RS- this could be the last opportunity to have "the ultimate" 911 before the 911 changes fundamentally into something different (hybrid, etc). Will pull out all the stops and if history serves any lessons up- will have 670hp. Of course this car won't even be for sale until 2019 so by then the McLaren P14, 488.2, Huracan 2 etc will all be launching. the real question is how does this apply to the possible 960 project...as that will be the "secret sauce" solution to ACO, FIA, GT3 regulations. built to homologate, built to dominate, in true Porsche fashion.
Do you think they can make the 991.2RS light enough without it becoming crazy expensive?
Seems easier to slap a couple of turbos on it and call it gt2rs? The PDK hooked up to 650-670hp would probably make it amazing.
Everybody seems to say that the 991RS is easy to drive fast and that also makes me think it would be a lot more driver friendly than the 997gt2rs?
01-16-2016, 10:24 PM
#80
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CJ,
Do you think they can make the 991.2RS light enough without it becoming crazy expensive?
Seems easier to slap a couple of turbos on it and call it gt2rs? The PDK hooked up to 650-670hp would probably make it amazing.
Everybody seems to say that the 991RS is easy to drive fast and that also makes me think it would be a lot more driver friendly than the 997gt2rs?
Do you think they can make the 991.2RS light enough without it becoming crazy expensive?
Seems easier to slap a couple of turbos on it and call it gt2rs? The PDK hooked up to 650-670hp would probably make it amazing.
Everybody seems to say that the 991RS is easy to drive fast and that also makes me think it would be a lot more driver friendly than the 997gt2rs?
PDK- eliminates the "oops" downshift
PDK- you can leave in auto, so first time at a track you just learn the lines (beginner obviously)
Rear Steering- it acts as another active differential, in a way you are transferring grip and load from front to rear and artificially adding grip via toe correction. At low speeds it shortens the effective wheelbase which decreases effort to corner. At higher speeds it increases the effective wheelbase which increases stability.
Engine increasingly centralized (moved forward slightly)- allows for more neutral handling at 8/10ths
Engine centralization combined with active motor mounts, ABD, electronic power steering and active rear steer:
This is the real whammy. This four way combo allows the car to electronically adjust 3 or 4 active components of weight shift and can use programmed algorithms to determine if you are carrying too much speed for the amount of steering wheel usage, etc etc. It hyper corrects the inherent bad habits of the car itself (pendulum effect ferocity) by at times making it more of a mid-engined car, or a longer wheelbase, or retarding the steering, engaging the rear brakes, etc. It's actively sensing everything all the time in order to keep you planted as much as computationally possible. A huge feat of electronic engineering and mechanical design. Software has evolved so much that the car can do 5-6 different inputs to 'create' new performance parameters. This is what Ferrari has been so good at with their 360CS, 430Scud etc the last few years- they have effectively engineered a super fun, hooligan button into their cars.
01-16-2016, 10:35 PM
#81
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^^^ 960 = baby 918 vs 21st century 928?
Too much overlap with the 991, nowadays, for the latter to make sense. Baby 918 in the 200s may have a market, albeit limited. Maybe this is where the Dieselgate paranoia may have legs - you could argue such an expensive, low volume, niche car may not fit the current climate at VAG?
You will probably have 911s being routinely outgunned by sedans over the next few gens, if they remain NA. It's just not a viable long term competitive platform, IMO, and the 911 will become a nostalgia act -- like a Morgan.
Too much overlap with the 991, nowadays, for the latter to make sense. Baby 918 in the 200s may have a market, albeit limited. Maybe this is where the Dieselgate paranoia may have legs - you could argue such an expensive, low volume, niche car may not fit the current climate at VAG?
You will probably have 911s being routinely outgunned by sedans over the next few gens, if they remain NA. It's just not a viable long term competitive platform, IMO, and the 911 will become a nostalgia act -- like a Morgan.
the only car that the 960 would overlap with is the GT2RS.
expensive, niche cars have super high margins.
also- due to sales volume being super low, they can effectively hide a high performance outlier in the lineup. if they sell 200,000 991.2 mini-turbos that get EPA 32mpg HWY, then they can sell 1000 960s with 20 MPG.
the initial concept for the 960 was a ferrari 458/McLaren 12C fighter but the game has moved on a lot since 2012. Both the 488 and 675LT are WAY WAY beyond what they were in 2012 iterations. The Porsche will now need to be a CF tub mid engined 650-700hp car to compete with what will by then be a 488 Salsiccia and the P14 McLaren.
THEY CAN DO IT. it will have to cost over 300k MSRP- and with the GT3RS going for $300k or so, (thanks to the buyers at those prices, why would they leave money on the table? If you are pissed about this collectively, well it's our collective fault on that) the GT2RS will probably be a 285k MSRP car. This will go above that. How far????
Look at the Ford GT. CF tub, low volume, over 600hp, around $400k.
Look at McLaren 675LT. CF tub, low volume, almost 700hp, around $400k.
01-16-2016, 11:00 PM
#82
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To compete with F 488 Salsiccia
Mc P14 Pudding
a Porsche 960 Wurstel.won t cost a euro less for sure
but at the end to me look all as an overpriced
too fat boring dinner
maybe inline with future buyer somewhere
Mc P14 Pudding
a Porsche 960 Wurstel.won t cost a euro less for sure
but at the end to me look all as an overpriced
too fat boring dinner
maybe inline with future buyer somewhere
01-16-2016, 11:28 PM
#83
If there is a 928 type car it will be based of the Pananamericana, not a 911 or mid engined car.
the only car that the 960 would overlap with is the GT2RS.
expensive, niche cars have super high margins.
also- due to sales volume being super low, they can effectively hide a high performance outlier in the lineup. if they sell 200,000 991.2 mini-turbos that get EPA 32mpg HWY, then they can sell 1000 960s with 20 MPG.
the initial concept for the 960 was a ferrari 458/McLaren 12C fighter but the game has moved on a lot since 2012. Both the 488 and 675LT are WAY WAY beyond what they were in 2012 iterations. The Porsche will now need to be a CF tub mid engined 650-700hp car to compete with what will by then be a 488 Salsiccia and the P14 McLaren.
THEY CAN DO IT. it will have to cost over 300k MSRP- and with the GT3RS going for $300k or so, (thanks to the buyers at those prices, why would they leave money on the table? If you are pissed about this collectively, well it's our collective fault on that) the GT2RS will probably be a 285k MSRP car. This will go above that. How far????
Look at the Ford GT. CF tub, low volume, over 600hp, around $400k.
Look at McLaren 675LT. CF tub, low volume, almost 700hp, around $400k.
the only car that the 960 would overlap with is the GT2RS.
expensive, niche cars have super high margins.
also- due to sales volume being super low, they can effectively hide a high performance outlier in the lineup. if they sell 200,000 991.2 mini-turbos that get EPA 32mpg HWY, then they can sell 1000 960s with 20 MPG.
the initial concept for the 960 was a ferrari 458/McLaren 12C fighter but the game has moved on a lot since 2012. Both the 488 and 675LT are WAY WAY beyond what they were in 2012 iterations. The Porsche will now need to be a CF tub mid engined 650-700hp car to compete with what will by then be a 488 Salsiccia and the P14 McLaren.
THEY CAN DO IT. it will have to cost over 300k MSRP- and with the GT3RS going for $300k or so, (thanks to the buyers at those prices, why would they leave money on the table? If you are pissed about this collectively, well it's our collective fault on that) the GT2RS will probably be a 285k MSRP car. This will go above that. How far????
Look at the Ford GT. CF tub, low volume, over 600hp, around $400k.
Look at McLaren 675LT. CF tub, low volume, almost 700hp, around $400k.
Yeah, you're right - 300k+ is probably more realistic.
I have no doubt that they can nail the performance. That sector is populated by aspirational exotics with classic supercar shapes, however. Porsche will have to up the drama factor. Some of the earlier concepts looked like stretched out Caymans.
01-16-2016, 11:59 PM
#84
Race Director
Originally Posted by fxz
To compete with F 488 Salsiccia
Mc P14 Pudding
a Porsche 960 Wurstel.won t cost a euro less for sure
but at the end to me look all as an overpriced
too fat boring dinner
maybe inline with future buyer somewhere
Mc P14 Pudding
a Porsche 960 Wurstel.won t cost a euro less for sure
but at the end to me look all as an overpriced
too fat boring dinner
maybe inline with future buyer somewhere
01-17-2016, 12:10 AM
#86
Three Wheelin'
Specific output @ nearly 123 hp/L is already among the highest of NA motors. Not much more you can do to go higher. The cylinders are each .667 L which means they are quite large. All that mass at very high RPM wreaks havoc on the motor.
01-17-2016, 07:21 AM
#87
Race Car
This is the real whammy. This four way combo allows the car to electronically adjust 3 or 4 active components of weight shift and can use programmed algorithms to determine if you are carrying too much speed for the amount of steering wheel usage, etc etc. It hyper corrects the inherent bad habits of the car itself (pendulum effect ferocity) by at times making it more of a mid-engined car, or a longer wheelbase, or retarding the steering, engaging the rear brakes, etc. It's actively sensing everything all the time in order to keep you planted as much as computationally possible.
I'm interested because I really like to know what's going on... Are you sure about "retarding the steering"?
01-17-2016, 08:57 AM
#89
Race Director
^Every one asks how the GT3/RS can achieve what it can on the track against its competitors with so much less HP - I think CJ is absolutely correct - It is Porsche at its best
01-17-2016, 08:59 AM
#90
Race Director
What do you think with the GT3(9000 rpm) - Do you think they have too many failure so they pulled back on the RS?