Next GT3--expect sub-7:18 Ring time
01-15-2016, 08:38 AM
#61
They tried on the RS. They had to reduce the RPM limit b/c they really have reached the limit of the NA motor for long term street reliability. Hence the TSB also where you see a change in mid range oil pressure for reliability purposes.
01-15-2016, 08:41 AM
#62
Yup, that's the key point. Does Motorsport want to wait two more generations before their cars are on par with or better than the top regular production models? As you point out, with safety requirements and the need to keep the GT cars in their proper place in the pricing hierarchy, going even lighter with more exotic materials doesn't seem feasible. And there's only so much power that can reasonably obtained from a NA flat 6.
Could be wrong, but I think that all of the normally aspirated rabbits have been pulled out of Porsche's hat. Forced induction, with or without electric boost, seems like the only way to go for the next GT3/RS, despite AP's earlier assurances which may have been reasonable at the time. The landscape is changing fast and I just think the handwriting is on the wall.
Like you, I would consider a properly done GT turbo. But I'm pretty happy to have one of the last great NA cars, if that's how it plays out.
Could be wrong, but I think that all of the normally aspirated rabbits have been pulled out of Porsche's hat. Forced induction, with or without electric boost, seems like the only way to go for the next GT3/RS, despite AP's earlier assurances which may have been reasonable at the time. The landscape is changing fast and I just think the handwriting is on the wall.
Like you, I would consider a properly done GT turbo. But I'm pretty happy to have one of the last great NA cars, if that's how it plays out.
If we believe Porsche's assertion that racing is in their DNA (which I do) just look at the ACO GT technical regulations. At one time the 911 turbo was at the top of Porsche food chain. Then the GT technical regs changed and NA engines became the platform to have in order to win in major GT racing series. The 993 GT2 turbo became noncompetitive. The GT3 R , Rs and RSR were developed for Le Mans. On the road car side, the GT3RS took over the king of the hill position in eyes of most.
For 2016, the technical regulations have been updated and now favor turbos (look at Ford and Ferrari). I think it's actually good for Porsche. The desire by PAG to stay with a flat 6 and their expertise in turbo technology. Turbos will keep the 911 competitive and also meet EPA pressures.
01-15-2016, 09:12 AM
#63
Drifting
I am assuming next GT cars will be turbo. Every other version of Porsche has now made the transition. In order to continue the escalation of HP claims yet simultaneously improve mpg it is inevitable. Sad yes, but history shows that despite change, Porsche will likely do things logically and the future cars will still kick ****!
01-15-2016, 10:01 AM
#64
Race Director
What if turbo cars get turbos, and gt cars get the hybrid which acts as a torque-fill system (a-la 918)... This preserves the NA character of gt cars, keeps the gt cars as avant-garde technology wise, and provides the Motorsports differentiation from the rest of the 911 line.
01-15-2016, 10:21 AM
#65
What if turbo cars get turbos, and gt cars get the hybrid which acts as a torque-fill system (a-la 918)... This preserves the NA character of gt cars, keeps the gt cars as avant-garde technology wise, and provides the Motorsports differentiation from the rest of the 911 line.
This would be interesting. I'm sure they will eventually use 918 and the 919 technology in and all their cars. It would be crazy not too!
I cant get enough of this, just watch and listen to this beast
Last edited by BK77; 01-15-2016 at 12:34 PM.
01-15-2016, 11:24 AM
#66
Race Director
I still think that we have one more iteration of the GT3/RS that will be NA. Especially now that they are racing this engine. I believe they will focus on light weight and modest increases in HP and torque. Then I think after that they will go Turbo or go the 918 route(trickle down that technology).
The GT4, I believe is done with NA. I think they will use this as the Mule with a Turbo engine first and see how Customers accept this. If they make that a winner it will be more easily accepted in the GT3/RS
The GT4, I believe is done with NA. I think they will use this as the Mule with a Turbo engine first and see how Customers accept this. If they make that a winner it will be more easily accepted in the GT3/RS
01-15-2016, 12:29 PM
#67
What if turbo cars get turbos, and gt cars get the hybrid which acts as a torque-fill system (a-la 918)... This preserves the NA character of gt cars, keeps the gt cars as avant-garde technology wise, and provides the Motorsports differentiation from the rest of the 911 line.
01-15-2016, 02:51 PM
#68
Race Director
Given the current demand for higher efficiency (a) just isn't going to happen. OTOH we've already seen (b) across the rest of the Porsche model line so it seems reasonable to think that the GT cars will soon follow. It's possible/likely that hybrid power will also be part of the mix, but even then I expect a small displacement turbo to be paired with the electric drivetrain as with the 919, and it's more likely to show up first in the series rather than GT cars for the reasons brake dust points out. Just speculation on my part....
01-15-2016, 04:03 PM
#69
This will always be an interesting conundrum given the foundation of a GT car is still the 911 body. So, with the direction PAG takes with the base 911 body, so goes the GT cars. Where competitors like the ACR, 570-675LT, Speciale/488, etc were built on bespoke platforms, GT cars will seemingly be hamstrung by PAGs quest to garner the street consumer who wants that comfort. So the Motorsport Team then has to look to the engine, suspension, etc components to substantially elevate the lower model 911. The other challenge is how extreme to take the GT cars while finding the balance of the perceived luxury PAG believes buyers of $150k+ cars want and performance to rival competitors. I'd love to see what the 991 RS would've been like with a Scud/Speciale-like interior and keeping to smaller wheels (maybe 19f/20r if they wanted to keep that rake) just for giggles.
Nissan realized this and completely separated the "GTR" from the skyline family of sedans/coupes for the R35. Will porsche have the GT3 branch off and be its own car while the rest of the 911s share components?
01-15-2016, 04:08 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Very good point. Why buy a loafer thats been modified into a training shoe when you can just buy a training shoe in the first place. Same issue with the BMW M3. Compromises have to be made.
Nissan realized this and completely separated the "GTR" from the skyline family of sedans/coupes for the R35. Will porsche have the GT3 branch off and be its own car while the rest of the 911s share components?
Nissan realized this and completely separated the "GTR" from the skyline family of sedans/coupes for the R35. Will porsche have the GT3 branch off and be its own car while the rest of the 911s share components?
My understand is the next all new generation of cars will share even more components, and have a more modular structure than the current 991, 981 lines.
01-15-2016, 07:21 PM
#72
Race Car
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Road legal 991 GT3 and RS had before the DFI than Cup R and RSR
So next Road legal GT had and can anticipate future Motorsport versions
Indeed consequence is that nowadays WE are the beta testers i want a discount for that ...
01-15-2016, 08:34 PM
#73
They had to increase the length of the stroke to achieve the 4 liter displacement. When you lengthen stroke, you have to reduce revs to control piston speed or you will blow the motor. In addition, with longer stroke, power is made lower in the power band.
They could rev that motor to 9,500 RPM if they wanted to. All you'll do is decrease the longevity of the motor, and have your power curve drop above 8,800..
01-15-2016, 09:38 PM
#74
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options:
GT3- already has PDK, DFI and "lighter weight options"- still slower than other cars but heartier, stronger, less prone to failures etc. The GT3 has become the "1960's mercedes" or "tank" of it's class, you cannot kill it unless you drive it into a wall. Other cars will be faster but will not last as long...
GT2- we have not seen this yet and will likely (historically) see this before the .2 version of the GT3...will make 30-40 more HP stock vs Turbo
GT3RS 991.2- only way to make it faster is to start deleting things, make it lighter and it will be faster. in order to give it more power, you would have to change the fundamental durability vs performance vs flexibility of the engine. They can do something with the transmission to make it even better. They can make the brakes even more aggressive. A more active suspension perhaps.
GT2RS- this could be the last opportunity to have "the ultimate" 911 before the 911 changes fundamentally into something different (hybrid, etc). Will pull out all the stops and if history serves any lessons up- will have 670hp. Of course this car won't even be for sale until 2019 so by then the McLaren P14, 488.2, Huracan 2 etc will all be launching.
the real question is how does this apply to the possible 960 project...as that will be the "secret sauce" solution to ACO, FIA, GT3 regulations. built to homologate, built to dominate, in true Porsche fashion.
GT3- already has PDK, DFI and "lighter weight options"- still slower than other cars but heartier, stronger, less prone to failures etc. The GT3 has become the "1960's mercedes" or "tank" of it's class, you cannot kill it unless you drive it into a wall. Other cars will be faster but will not last as long...
GT2- we have not seen this yet and will likely (historically) see this before the .2 version of the GT3...will make 30-40 more HP stock vs Turbo
GT3RS 991.2- only way to make it faster is to start deleting things, make it lighter and it will be faster. in order to give it more power, you would have to change the fundamental durability vs performance vs flexibility of the engine. They can do something with the transmission to make it even better. They can make the brakes even more aggressive. A more active suspension perhaps.
GT2RS- this could be the last opportunity to have "the ultimate" 911 before the 911 changes fundamentally into something different (hybrid, etc). Will pull out all the stops and if history serves any lessons up- will have 670hp. Of course this car won't even be for sale until 2019 so by then the McLaren P14, 488.2, Huracan 2 etc will all be launching.
the real question is how does this apply to the possible 960 project...as that will be the "secret sauce" solution to ACO, FIA, GT3 regulations. built to homologate, built to dominate, in true Porsche fashion.
01-16-2016, 08:05 AM
#75
I don't agree with this at all. Who said they dropped the RPM limit due to reaching some imaginary HP ceiling? Different engines make power in different portions of the power band.
They had to increase the length of the stroke to achieve the 4 liter displacement. When you lengthen stroke, you have to reduce revs to control piston speed or you will blow the motor. In addition, with longer stroke, power is made lower in the power band.
They could rev that motor to 9,500 RPM if they wanted to. All you'll do is decrease the longevity of the motor, and have your power curve drop above 8,800..
They had to increase the length of the stroke to achieve the 4 liter displacement. When you lengthen stroke, you have to reduce revs to control piston speed or you will blow the motor. In addition, with longer stroke, power is made lower in the power band.
They could rev that motor to 9,500 RPM if they wanted to. All you'll do is decrease the longevity of the motor, and have your power curve drop above 8,800..