Just had a chat with the Cleaning Lady
12-15-2015, 10:49 AM
#196
Racer
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I assume you mean PDK-S. That is an interesting statement on many levels. Having driven several PDK cars which were somewhat "meh", I would never have imagined a paddle shift box could be as engaging as PDK-S. My wife and I were fortunate enough to have an opportunity to purchase a GT4, however since it was only available as a manual and due to my wife's inability to confidently drive a manual we opted to pass. Ryan
I'd rock the manual if I was physically able to but I am not.
12-15-2015, 10:59 AM
#197
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maybe for the track, but certainly not for the street, presuming you don't need to go to redline in every gear. I'm enjoying the heck out of mine while short shifting on public roads. I do occasionally do second gear redline, and that is an aural treat if there ever was one.
12-15-2015, 11:22 AM
#198
Race Director
Most people at these dealerships and whoever else is being whispered to don't even know the differences between many of the GT models. I think that's where the confusion and misinformation comes from.
12-15-2015, 11:27 AM
#199
Nordschleife Master
Overall the gears are fine and it seems a lot of the complaining has died down(which was in part by many that have not even driven the car,but were looking on paper).
The Spyder is a great car,we had 3 at our latest Sunday meeting in Ny and they look gorgeous and sound just as good.
12-15-2015, 11:46 AM
#200
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The gears have not bothered me on the street just yet. Part of that was also due to the fact I was in break in and short shifting around 4K-4500. Now that I'm passed break in and have taken it to redline,I can say that this car would've been quite a bit faster with shorter gears. I suspect quite as much as to " bother " the GT3 performance and advantage a bit. Porsche would not allow that. They also did not allow the proper 430HP that this engine is easily capable of doing. The different exhaust than the Carrera S and X51 intake fitment is hogwash for suckers to believe. BGB motorsports have already fitted that intake on a 981 platform with slight modifications.
Overall the gears are fine and it seems a lot of the complaining has died down(which was in part by many that have not even driven the car,but were looking on paper).
The Spyder is a great car,we had 3 at our latest Sunday meeting in Ny and they look gorgeous and sound just as good.
Overall the gears are fine and it seems a lot of the complaining has died down(which was in part by many that have not even driven the car,but were looking on paper).
The Spyder is a great car,we had 3 at our latest Sunday meeting in Ny and they look gorgeous and sound just as good.
tempting, 430HP and a gearbox mod not so expensive for a MT at any of the motorsport shops
it will be car life keeper!
12-15-2015, 11:49 AM
#201
Race Director
I would not buy the GT4 if it had PDK-S. Why? - I have the GT3 for that. PDK-S is fantastic but does not replace a third peddle for me. I think the reason it was "Manual only" was to appeal/appease the purists since the GT3 was going to be "PDK-S only".
As for long gears. One could argue the GT3 gears are long. How many times for street driving can you wind those gears out. Almost 92% of the time you are short shifting in the GT3. I am not defending the GT4 because I must try it for myself before I can comment if too long or not. But - I am assuming they are too long for the track because that would be a crazy statement conveying that they on the street when comparing it to the GT3 with 9000 redline for street driving.
As for long gears. One could argue the GT3 gears are long. How many times for street driving can you wind those gears out. Almost 92% of the time you are short shifting in the GT3. I am not defending the GT4 because I must try it for myself before I can comment if too long or not. But - I am assuming they are too long for the track because that would be a crazy statement conveying that they on the street when comparing it to the GT3 with 9000 redline for street driving.
12-15-2015, 01:12 PM
#203
Three Wheelin'
Some say you've got to drive the 991 GT3 w/ PDK-S too fast to get enjoyment on the road and that it just too quickly puts you into extra legal speeds. I'd counter with things I did with a manual in my youth put you in extra legal territory as well; sometimes from speed, sometimes not.
Ran my 991 GT3 with the Smokies group at AMP, but I don't feel the safety features of a street car are appropriate for 10/10 on track which is why I have gutted, caged track cars (a Spec Miata and a BMW e36).
Ryan
12-15-2015, 01:14 PM
#204
Guys there s nothing so difficult so no bets but one way charity eventually 
so pls do so
There s no GT2 /GT2 RS badge for 991.2 but it will be badged GT3 and GT3 RS and be Turbo
No more NAs (Apart two VIP limited iterations
aka 991R and 991RS light (aka Cup) edition made in few units (600/900 units) and btw not GT3
also the GT3 Turbo it is anticipated 1 year (End 2016 rather than already AP confirmed months ago End 2017) to compete with Ferrari 488 Turbo just homologated at WEC
where Porsche just retired the current NAs
So current 991 GT3 IS the last NA GT3 forever
(and highest revving 911 pure NA produced since the first 911)
Porsche german Official dealers used 991.1 GT3 prices are already shooting the roof + The WEC above + Some Reliable Cleaning Ladies
Easy no?
so pls do soThere s no GT2 /GT2 RS badge for 991.2 but it will be badged GT3 and GT3 RS and be Turbo
No more NAs (Apart two VIP limited iterations
aka 991R and 991RS light (aka Cup) edition made in few units (600/900 units) and btw not GT3
also the GT3 Turbo it is anticipated 1 year (End 2016 rather than already AP confirmed months ago End 2017) to compete with Ferrari 488 Turbo just homologated at WEC
where Porsche just retired the current NAs
So current 991 GT3 IS the last NA GT3 forever
(and highest revving 911 pure NA produced since the first 911)
Porsche german Official dealers used 991.1 GT3 prices are already shooting the roof + The WEC above + Some Reliable Cleaning Ladies
Easy no?
If a GT3 RS with turbo's come, it will be labeled a GT2 RS.
12-15-2015, 01:32 PM
#205
Rennlist Member
LOL. Where are you getting your dumb info from? I just posted a link where porsche said themselves the GT2 RS is coming. There is no GT3 RS with turbo's. The head of the GT program already said it isn't going to happen for some time. Please at this point post your sources for this BS info otherwise you are just confusing everyone.
If a GT3 RS with turbo's come, it will be labeled a GT2 RS.
If a GT3 RS with turbo's come, it will be labeled a GT2 RS.
The statements by AP were all before the Diesel fiasco came to full light.
12-15-2015, 01:43 PM
#206
Nordschleife Master
That's one aspect I keep hearing about : the Dieselgate. Valid but not supported in this case. It would be more expensive to change the strategy,direction and development than continuing on the same path as it has been planned long time ago.
12-15-2015, 02:29 PM
#208
Race Director
Ok assuming that the 991.2 GT3 and RS is NA I am curious how they will extract and meaningful safe gain in HP from the 3.8 or 4.0L engines which are already strung out like a stretched elastic band.
By meaningful I mean it needs to be 10-15hp and above to be in line with Porsche historical generation improvements.
I guess I can see there being marginal HP to extract from the 4.0L engine but that would come at a hefty price for a GT3.
By meaningful I mean it needs to be 10-15hp and above to be in line with Porsche historical generation improvements.
I guess I can see there being marginal HP to extract from the 4.0L engine but that would come at a hefty price for a GT3.
I'm not necessarily buying the rumors or predicting a turbo "GT3", but I also wouldn't be too surprised if it happens. I thought from the beginning that this generation of GT3 might be the last pure NA version (ie not a hybrid either) and it's a big reason why I put down a deposit on one back in 2012.
12-15-2015, 02:31 PM
#209
This pic is from German article July 13, 2015 where the journalists hypothesize a GT2 electric/gas hybrid MY2020 or later, with 700+ HP ... very much an article exploring the future of the GT2 series, using Li batteries and major redesign of powertrain and chassis. Think we'll see interim GT2/GT2RS generation prior to this postulated rendition of a very different GT2 car.
12-15-2015, 02:36 PM
#210
Drifting
This is a very relevant question. And never mind 10-15 HP; the incremental gain between the 997.2 GT3 and 991.1 GT3 was 40 HP. Without turbocharging how will Porsche extract anything close to that for the next generation while maintaining reliability and a pricing structure that slots the GT3 between a high end Carrera and the Turbo, not to mention the need to remain competitive with other manufacturers and possible ripples from dieselgate.
I'm not necessarily buying the rumors or predicting a turbo "GT3", but I also wouldn't be too surprised if it happens. I thought from the beginning that this generation of GT3 might be the last pure NA versione (ie not a hybrid either) and it's a big reason why I put down a deposit on one back in 2012.
I'm not necessarily buying the rumors or predicting a turbo "GT3", but I also wouldn't be too surprised if it happens. I thought from the beginning that this generation of GT3 might be the last pure NA versione (ie not a hybrid either) and it's a big reason why I put down a deposit on one back in 2012.
Porsche will be marketing turbo cars and efficiency in general quite heavily, and they will be expending lots of energy and cash to do so; releasing a halo car that contradicts that impetus would not be on brand message.
The 991.1 GT3 suffered embarrassing and expensive engine failures (785 engine replacements worldwide at ~$50K per lump, plus inestimable reputational and goodwill damage), and the 991.1 4.0 RS has seen several engine failures already. This despite the fact that Porsche lowered the redline in the RS by 200 RPM to bring the corrected mean piston speed to the same figure that the 3.8 liter 991.1 GT3 experiences. Each new RS that saw engine failure was tracked hard, and that's probably a small sample of the cars delivered given the speculative market dynamics for the car at present. The new 3.8/4.0 engine was supposed to be serve through the entirety of the 991 generation, but that was before the failures emerged. This is a major black eye for the Motorsport division; even if you ascribe zero "cost" to the downtime on the production line, no cars available for magazine/media testing, negative goodwill among some of their best customers, broader reputational repercussions, etc. the expense of replacing 785 $50K engines was $40MM at a MINIMUM.
As the engine is already maxed out in terms of specific output, Porsche will have to the fit the 4.0 liter engine to extract additional power and torque over the 3.8 liter engine; that engine is much more expensive due to the special new crank material borrowed from the 919. That would likely push the price of the 991.2 GT3 much higher than the 991.1 GT3 (base ~$131K USD). Perhaps $15K-$20K?
The 991.2 Carrera S laps the Nurburgring in 7:34, only 9 seconds behind the 991.1 GT3. Undoubtedly that Carrera S has the optimal set of options to achieve that pace over a single lap (PCCB, RWS, etc.); the new Carrera S also wears wider rubber than the 991.1 (305mm rears vs 295mm), although the OE tire is a Pirelli P Zero, NOT the vastly better Michelin PSC2 or Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, so the gap is closer when tires are controlled for. Remember also that they have to build in a gap for the 991.2 Carrera GTS, which will probably produce 445 bhp... Much easier to extract the requisite performance gap by fitting a turbo engine that produces more power and lots more torque than the 991.1 GT3 engine.
Worldwide GT3/GTE regulations are in flux and rapidly evolving. The race car versions of the Ford GT and 488 GTB will have turbo engines. Porsche cannot continue competing with the Mezger engine indefinitely, as it is heavier than newer engines and lacks DFI for fuel economy. Fans are increasingly critical of BOP, which has helped the current 911 RSR and the Aston Martins immensely this year; the RSR has won every major sports car/endurance race in which it has competed since Le Mans (both WEC and Tudor). They will have to go turbo (and/or hybrid?) soon.
So... sorry to ramble, but I think the next "GT3" may be a GT2.
The 991.1 GT3 suffered embarrassing and expensive engine failures (785 engine replacements worldwide at ~$50K per lump, plus inestimable reputational and goodwill damage), and the 991.1 4.0 RS has seen several engine failures already. This despite the fact that Porsche lowered the redline in the RS by 200 RPM to bring the corrected mean piston speed to the same figure that the 3.8 liter 991.1 GT3 experiences. Each new RS that saw engine failure was tracked hard, and that's probably a small sample of the cars delivered given the speculative market dynamics for the car at present. The new 3.8/4.0 engine was supposed to be serve through the entirety of the 991 generation, but that was before the failures emerged. This is a major black eye for the Motorsport division; even if you ascribe zero "cost" to the downtime on the production line, no cars available for magazine/media testing, negative goodwill among some of their best customers, broader reputational repercussions, etc. the expense of replacing 785 $50K engines was $40MM at a MINIMUM.
As the engine is already maxed out in terms of specific output, Porsche will have to the fit the 4.0 liter engine to extract additional power and torque over the 3.8 liter engine; that engine is much more expensive due to the special new crank material borrowed from the 919. That would likely push the price of the 991.2 GT3 much higher than the 991.1 GT3 (base ~$131K USD). Perhaps $15K-$20K?
The 991.2 Carrera S laps the Nurburgring in 7:34, only 9 seconds behind the 991.1 GT3. Undoubtedly that Carrera S has the optimal set of options to achieve that pace over a single lap (PCCB, RWS, etc.); the new Carrera S also wears wider rubber than the 991.1 (305mm rears vs 295mm), although the OE tire is a Pirelli P Zero, NOT the vastly better Michelin PSC2 or Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, so the gap is closer when tires are controlled for. Remember also that they have to build in a gap for the 991.2 Carrera GTS, which will probably produce 445 bhp... Much easier to extract the requisite performance gap by fitting a turbo engine that produces more power and lots more torque than the 991.1 GT3 engine.
Worldwide GT3/GTE regulations are in flux and rapidly evolving. The race car versions of the Ford GT and 488 GTB will have turbo engines. Porsche cannot continue competing with the Mezger engine indefinitely, as it is heavier than newer engines and lacks DFI for fuel economy. Fans are increasingly critical of BOP, which has helped the current 911 RSR and the Aston Martins immensely this year; the RSR has won every major sports car/endurance race in which it has competed since Le Mans (both WEC and Tudor). They will have to go turbo (and/or hybrid?) soon.
So... sorry to ramble, but I think the next "GT3" may be a GT2.