RS buyers: Is your dealer making you sign a "right of first refusal buyback at MSRP"?
10-04-2015, 09:13 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Looking at the GT3 RS as an example, I'd suggest a Porsche owned lease strategy could:
a) Get cars directly into customer hands without introducing the 25-50k (?) average markup dealers are imposing.
b) Discourage a sizable percentage of people that are buying the car as an investment, as a 4 year period with no prospect of a return would kill ROI.
c) That discouragement would free up more slots for Rennlisters when the car's new.
a) Get cars directly into customer hands without introducing the 25-50k (?) average markup dealers are imposing.
b) Discourage a sizable percentage of people that are buying the car as an investment, as a 4 year period with no prospect of a return would kill ROI.
c) That discouragement would free up more slots for Rennlisters when the car's new.
10-04-2015, 09:25 PM
#62
While I agree that a lease only deal would be best to reduce car flippers, if a lease only situation on limited production cars was to come to fruition by PCNA it most certainly would still be signed through dealerships and it would not eliminate dealers from charging over MSRP.
That's clear. However a long enough hold period would likely make it economically much less attractive vs other investments, cars or otherwise. This wouldn't eliminate speculators, but it would help.
10-04-2015, 10:59 PM
#63
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I would ask the dealer to sign a zero depreciation clause.... in the event the car depreciates in the same time frame they asked for their first right, they are also obligated to buy it back at MSRP...
10-05-2015, 12:24 AM
#64
Three Wheelin'
10-05-2015, 12:47 AM
#65
Actually, the lease whether 2,3 or 4 year would remove the bulk of the speculators from the market. Used car dealers and flippers have to move their money fast. If it took them 4 years of payments and the required full coverage insurance, the deal would not look attractive.
To an enthusiast, owning the car for a longer period is the actual goal. This idea would actually leave these vehicles for the people who are committed to owning them. The factory could hold the lease, which would reduce any potential fraud, and it would provide a revenue stream at the same time.
As long as I were able to purchase it at the end of the term for the residual value, I would have no issue entering into this deal. Then again, if I were looking to do a quick resell, then it would not work.
Maybe the Porsche factory likes the frenzy created by the flippers and speculators in the market. It helps them sell every single car they build. It also creates an illusion of the vehicle being in extremely high demand.. Hmmm makes me wonder?
To an enthusiast, owning the car for a longer period is the actual goal. This idea would actually leave these vehicles for the people who are committed to owning them. The factory could hold the lease, which would reduce any potential fraud, and it would provide a revenue stream at the same time.
As long as I were able to purchase it at the end of the term for the residual value, I would have no issue entering into this deal. Then again, if I were looking to do a quick resell, then it would not work.
Maybe the Porsche factory likes the frenzy created by the flippers and speculators in the market. It helps them sell every single car they build. It also creates an illusion of the vehicle being in extremely high demand.. Hmmm makes me wonder?
10-05-2015, 01:09 AM
#66
Nordschleife Master
So let me get this straight, if you want to sell, you have to offer it to the dealer at msrp, so that the dealer can then sell the used RS well above msrp ? How is that not flipping on the dealers part ?
10-05-2015, 02:07 AM
#67
10-05-2015, 10:12 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
You guys are all looking at this the wrong way.
I think what they are doing is GREAT. A step in the right direction! Exactly what they should be doing to prevent these cars going to "opportunists" instead of enthusiasts.
Kudos to whoever this Porsche dealer is! Bravo!
I encourage every dealer to sell at MSRP with such a contract.
I think what they are doing is GREAT. A step in the right direction! Exactly what they should be doing to prevent these cars going to "opportunists" instead of enthusiasts.
Kudos to whoever this Porsche dealer is! Bravo!
I encourage every dealer to sell at MSRP with such a contract.
10-05-2015, 10:43 AM
#69
Nordschleife Master
Here's the way I look at it. We are back to the market adjustment and the price/supply too low on the car. What's it's really worth? Make it up,add $25k to any RS MSRP. Now, that's what the market will bear. So who gets the extra $25k? PAG/PCNA already gave it up. So answer is dealers, brokers, or individuals. What I have learned in my search for an RS is that even the dealers that don't charge above MSRP on policy, want to find a way to get that $25k. The most common method I saw are agreements like this, or worse, pre-agreement to trade back in at a deficit if you want the next car they have. The car could appreciate. It could also depreciate. I would do this type of deal if it meant always being at the very top of the dealer list for PTS GT cars. You get them as often as you want and you put the first 2-3k miles on them. And essentially you drive them for free.
10-05-2015, 10:51 AM
#70
All this did was cut out flipping from owners of the car, but just encouraged flipping from dealers instead...
10-05-2015, 12:14 PM
#71
Race Director
I'm surprised at the deception and confusion this concept is causing ...
If the dealer strategy to mandate "right of first refusal to buy at MSRP" or stipulation a GT3RS owner can't resell/trade except at MSRP within a 1-2 year time-period becomes widespread, the effect on us enthusiasts will be the opposite of what some posters on this thread are postulating ...
The effect will be:
1. New owners of the 991 GT3RS will hang on to their cars longer ... reselling or trading-in later to avoid selling at significantly below market
2. The market for the new or "used" GT3RS will be tighter, with HIGHER prices ... to the detriment of those rennlisters or other enthusiasts who are trying to get into this car
3. Dealers will be able to charge yet higher prices for the few cars available
4. The speculators, which I think are generally some dealers scouring the country for owners willing to give up their allocation or their newly titled cars, will control a yet tighter supply
This is very much a strategy that benefits dealer finances, not us customers.
IMO, this is NOT what we want.
If the dealer strategy to mandate "right of first refusal to buy at MSRP" or stipulation a GT3RS owner can't resell/trade except at MSRP within a 1-2 year time-period becomes widespread, the effect on us enthusiasts will be the opposite of what some posters on this thread are postulating ...
The effect will be:
1. New owners of the 991 GT3RS will hang on to their cars longer ... reselling or trading-in later to avoid selling at significantly below market
2. The market for the new or "used" GT3RS will be tighter, with HIGHER prices ... to the detriment of those rennlisters or other enthusiasts who are trying to get into this car
3. Dealers will be able to charge yet higher prices for the few cars available
4. The speculators, which I think are generally some dealers scouring the country for owners willing to give up their allocation or their newly titled cars, will control a yet tighter supply
This is very much a strategy that benefits dealer finances, not us customers.
IMO, this is NOT what we want.
I'm not clear what the legality is. Clearly it's a challenge to manage dealers legally unless the Tesla model catches on, but the fact that Ferrari and Toyota have already pulled it off suggests to me there's something there.
That's clear. However a long enough hold period would likely make it economically much less attractive vs other investments, cars or otherwise. This wouldn't eliminate speculators, but it would help.
That's clear. However a long enough hold period would likely make it economically much less attractive vs other investments, cars or otherwise. This wouldn't eliminate speculators, but it would help.
Whats the difference b/w the an enthusiast and a speculator?
Every enthusiast I know has his price.
These dealership specific agreements arent worth the paper theyre written on. Unless it comes down from Porsche, like the NO Export agreement, its total BS.
Now, what if your stock broker calls and says "We'll give you shares in (insert hot IPO stock here) only if you sign an agreement..."? They cant because its unethical and illegal.
10-05-2015, 12:21 PM
#72
Here's the way I look at it. We are back to the market adjustment and the price/supply too low on the car. What's it's really worth? Make it up,add $25k to any RS MSRP. Now, that's what the market will bear. So who gets the extra $25k? PAG/PCNA already gave it up. So answer is dealers, brokers, or individuals. What I have learned in my search for an RS is that even the dealers that don't charge above MSRP on policy, want to find a way to get that $25k. The most common method I saw are agreements like this, or worse, pre-agreement to trade back in at a deficit if you want the next car they have. The car could appreciate. It could also depreciate. I would do this type of deal if it meant always being at the very top of the dealer list for PTS GT cars. You get them as often as you want and you put the first 2-3k miles on them. And essentially you drive them for free.
10-05-2015, 12:22 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
How are people not thinking that the dealer wouldn't flip the car at a premium if the market bears that in resale? I'm not sure how this agreement helps the consumer.
10-05-2015, 12:59 PM
#74
Ferrari makes you sign the same thing....it is not enforceable at all....not sure how Porsche works but if you break the Ferrari contract you can pretty much forget about ever getting another new Ferrari....this works for them because dealerships can't sell a new car outside of their territory....they go with your DL address and for the most part while some have multiple homes they only have one DL.....this came directly from the GM at my dealership as I signed the contract....
10-05-2015, 01:17 PM
#75
"A person who makes advance purchases of <span style="text-decoration:line-through;">tickets, as to games or theatrical performances</span> cars that are likely to be in demand, for resale later at a higher price."