Track the gt3
11-17-2014, 04:29 PM
#16
I started tracking in a 458, that too a brand new one. Have done 8 track days in 15 months. Now that i have realized that it is better to track a cheaper car, if nothing else but to have cheaper consumables i.e. steel brakes etc... I am downgrading and waiting for my Jan gt3 which is half the purchase price.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that one may learn quicker with a cheaper lower hp car. At first I was humiliated by much lesser cars with better drivers. I have gotten better with time and practice but more slowly than I would have liked. I do think that starting with a cayman would have been a better ladder step for me. I did previously own a 991 c2s but never made it to a track with it. I wish I had.
So there's nothing wrong with starting with a gt3 on the track. It really comes down to your budget. But don't expect to be king on the track, until you have actually learned to drive, regardless of which car you are driving.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that one may learn quicker with a cheaper lower hp car. At first I was humiliated by much lesser cars with better drivers. I have gotten better with time and practice but more slowly than I would have liked. I do think that starting with a cayman would have been a better ladder step for me. I did previously own a 991 c2s but never made it to a track with it. I wish I had.
So there's nothing wrong with starting with a gt3 on the track. It really comes down to your budget. But don't expect to be king on the track, until you have actually learned to drive, regardless of which car you are driving.
11-17-2014, 05:00 PM
#17
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If you just want to have fun on the track, go kart and GT6 is enough. And don't forget to show your respect to your GT3.
If you want to be professional, according to my friend who is learning to be a professional driver, start with go kart....Than spec miata. You need as least 2-3 years to compete in a go kart or miata to learn the skill.
If you want to be professional, according to my friend who is learning to be a professional driver, start with go kart....Than spec miata. You need as least 2-3 years to compete in a go kart or miata to learn the skill.
11-17-2014, 05:27 PM
#18
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My personal suggestion would be to start with a track-prepped aircooled 911 though (you'll really learn the 911 characteristics without the bandaids which can obscure your influence on the behavior of the car like ABS, power steering, traction and stability controls, etc.). You also will be able to maintain it cheaply and sell it without depreciation, if you choose wisely.
11-17-2014, 07:01 PM
#19
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I started tracking in a 1994 993 manual. I learnt (still learning) in this car. It was a great feeling when I would complete a session only a 2-3s a lap off the pace of the fastest GT3s in the group. I was always working harder and had to learn alot of little tricks to close the gap. Very good for learning race craft. Ive only tracked the 991 GT3 a few times. Im struggling still to exploit the bets from it as its such a different platform. Although Im a few seconds a lap faster in it than the 993 its probably reflective of how I have yet to get the best out of the platform. Its easy to pick up 2-3s when you are adding almost 200 bhp to the equation. However you look at the sector times in the tight stuff and realise you were as quick in the slower car. The older slower platform gives you plenty of feedback and you have a little more time coming off a fast section to get your lines right into a corner. The biggest challenge with the newer more powerful platform is mastering teh chassis. The 991 GT3 can carry WAY more speed than Im giving it through the corners. The issue is a mental one. I know the limits of the 993 in those corners and therefore its a mental block to push the GT3 as harder there as my reference points are all screwy.
So there is something to be said both ways around. My 993 is well developed for the track so not a good comparative example. with 290bhp you work the chassis and gearbox to its limit and you have a feel for where that limit lies. With the 991 GT3 you are mostly travelling alot quicker and always mindful of not really knowing comparative where the limit exists for that car so you tend to run conservatively.
What I believe needs to happen 9and what I will be doing shortly) is going back to square one in the GT3 and getting an instructor I know (experience Porsche trained guy has raced Nurburgring 24hr etc) to ride shotgun for the next few track days. He knows I can punt the 993 and he can feel the grip and capability of the car so he can encourage me to push on in places where currently Im drawing a mental line based on prior platform experience. Once you have completed a hand full of sessions with a guy like this you get in the car and attack things with alot more confidence because you KNOW you can carry the speed. I think Ill be using a bit more trail braking in the 991 GT3. The car seems very kind on consumables compared to other similar performance machinery at the track. The MPSC2 appear to last almost as long as the Hankook Z221 I use on the 993 (140kg lighter). The pads last very well (not as long as 993) but I think the discs will wear twice as quick as the 993 (GT3 is heavier and caring much more terminal velocity before braking at the end of the straights).
So there is something to be said both ways around. My 993 is well developed for the track so not a good comparative example. with 290bhp you work the chassis and gearbox to its limit and you have a feel for where that limit lies. With the 991 GT3 you are mostly travelling alot quicker and always mindful of not really knowing comparative where the limit exists for that car so you tend to run conservatively.
What I believe needs to happen 9and what I will be doing shortly) is going back to square one in the GT3 and getting an instructor I know (experience Porsche trained guy has raced Nurburgring 24hr etc) to ride shotgun for the next few track days. He knows I can punt the 993 and he can feel the grip and capability of the car so he can encourage me to push on in places where currently Im drawing a mental line based on prior platform experience. Once you have completed a hand full of sessions with a guy like this you get in the car and attack things with alot more confidence because you KNOW you can carry the speed. I think Ill be using a bit more trail braking in the 991 GT3. The car seems very kind on consumables compared to other similar performance machinery at the track. The MPSC2 appear to last almost as long as the Hankook Z221 I use on the 993 (140kg lighter). The pads last very well (not as long as 993) but I think the discs will wear twice as quick as the 993 (GT3 is heavier and caring much more terminal velocity before braking at the end of the straights).
11-17-2014, 07:46 PM
#20
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I started tracking in a 1994 993 manual. I learnt (still learning) in this car. It was a great feeling when I would complete a session only a 2-3s a lap off the pace of the fastest GT3s in the group. I was always working harder and had to learn alot of little tricks to close the gap. Very good for learning race craft. Ive only tracked the 991 GT3 a few times. Im struggling still to exploit the bets from it as its such a different platform. Although Im a few seconds a lap faster in it than the 993 its probably reflective of how I have yet to get the best out of the platform. Its easy to pick up 2-3s when you are adding almost 200 bhp to the equation. However you look at the sector times in the tight stuff and realise you were as quick in the slower car. The older slower platform gives you plenty of feedback and you have a little more time coming off a fast section to get your lines right into a corner. The biggest challenge with the newer more powerful platform is mastering teh chassis. The 991 GT3 can carry WAY more speed than Im giving it through the corners. The issue is a mental one. I know the limits of the 993 in those corners and therefore its a mental block to push the GT3 as harder there as my reference points are all screwy.
So there is something to be said both ways around. My 993 is well developed for the track so not a good comparative example. with 290bhp you work the chassis and gearbox to its limit and you have a feel for where that limit lies. With the 991 GT3 you are mostly travelling alot quicker and always mindful of not really knowing comparative where the limit exists for that car so you tend to run conservatively.
What I believe needs to happen 9and what I will be doing shortly) is going back to square one in the GT3 and getting an instructor I know (experience Porsche trained guy has raced Nurburgring 24hr etc) to ride shotgun for the next few track days. He knows I can punt the 993 and he can feel the grip and capability of the car so he can encourage me to push on in places where currently Im drawing a mental line based on prior platform experience. Once you have completed a hand full of sessions with a guy like this you get in the car and attack things with alot more confidence because you KNOW you can carry the speed. I think Ill be using a bit more trail braking in the 991 GT3. The car seems very kind on consumables compared to other similar performance machinery at the track. The MPSC2 appear to last almost as long as the Hankook Z221 I use on the 993 (140kg lighter). The pads last very well (not as long as 993) but I think the discs will wear twice as quick as the 993 (GT3 is heavier and caring much more terminal velocity before braking at the end of the straights).
So there is something to be said both ways around. My 993 is well developed for the track so not a good comparative example. with 290bhp you work the chassis and gearbox to its limit and you have a feel for where that limit lies. With the 991 GT3 you are mostly travelling alot quicker and always mindful of not really knowing comparative where the limit exists for that car so you tend to run conservatively.
What I believe needs to happen 9and what I will be doing shortly) is going back to square one in the GT3 and getting an instructor I know (experience Porsche trained guy has raced Nurburgring 24hr etc) to ride shotgun for the next few track days. He knows I can punt the 993 and he can feel the grip and capability of the car so he can encourage me to push on in places where currently Im drawing a mental line based on prior platform experience. Once you have completed a hand full of sessions with a guy like this you get in the car and attack things with alot more confidence because you KNOW you can carry the speed. I think Ill be using a bit more trail braking in the 991 GT3. The car seems very kind on consumables compared to other similar performance machinery at the track. The MPSC2 appear to last almost as long as the Hankook Z221 I use on the 993 (140kg lighter). The pads last very well (not as long as 993) but I think the discs will wear twice as quick as the 993 (GT3 is heavier and caring much more terminal velocity before braking at the end of the straights).
11-17-2014, 08:43 PM
#21
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Manifold. I think there is some merit here. Unfortunately I have not got any experience in driving or being a passenger in anything modern to compare. My 993 has coilovers with RS components and full rose rear jointed suspension arms (all three arms per hub). The engine is on Motec with a lumpy cam, RS LWFC and solid engine, transmission and rear suspension mounts. I also have a very aggressive geo with -3+ negative front camber and virtual 0 degree toe in. That car tells you every nuance of the track. You can feel the tyres break away and from your bum you can gauge the slip angles. Driven with confidence its quite a bit quicker than the stats would indicate alone. Its woefully low on torque/hp for the straights (my GT3 is almost 20% higher Vmax on the same track). I guess in terms of factory likeness my 993 is between a 993RS and 993Cup car from an engine/suspension/chassis POV although it still has all creature comforts (air con, carpet, stereo, sunroof etc) so the weight is a little higher than an RS but 100kg less than stock. A Cup car would be 120kg less than I have now and would make a difference on transitions, speed through corners and hooking up onto a straight for a bit better terminal velocity.
So I have track experience in two cars separated by 20+ years of tech. The older car has moved beyond teh design remit to a quasi RS/Cup hot rod set up for the track and the newer car is 100% stock as it came from the factory.
I suspect that any modern day 911 would feel similar to my GT3 around the track when compared to my 993. An M3, Gallado or anything you really care to name would not give the rawness and feedback of my oldtimer. I have not driven a 997.2 GT3 around my track so I cannot compare but again I think it would seem less communicative with its more modern suspension, PSAM, number steering and stiffer chassis.
I havent really made a definitive conclusion here. I have organised a private track day in 6 weeks time to get seat time in both my cars back to back with an instructor. The GT3 is way stiffer and in some way that isolates the driver from what the individual wheels are doing. The steering certainly has less feedback than my 993 but then so does every modern 911 Ive driven by comparison. The 991 GT3 handles the speed and transitions so much more smoothly than my 993. I drive the GT3 on track with windows up and air con on (because I can!) and the 993 with window down a bit and air con off (because I need the extra power!). That may make a little difference. I think the performance envelope is much wider than I am used to with the 993. It seems more civilised at the speeds Im driving. There is much room for improvement.
To date Ive used the car in Sport Auto. I should mention I will be trying it in manual mode on the track from here on in to gain a bit more control. I think it will add a bit of drama to the driving although I expect it will not yield better times...
Below is a clip from my first every track session in the car. The 3-4 best lap times (10 lap session) were in teh low 1.14s. Best lap was 1.14.01. I hadnt visited this track for 15 months so there are two corners I turn in way too early and loose time and I havent quite sorted the sweeper out in this session. The best time in our group is a guy with much more experience than me on this track in a 997.2 GT3 on TrofeoR at 1.13.31. I can see 1 second a lap in my times immediately (didnt pick my mistakes up on the day till looking at the footage later). My brake points are far too conservative (used to the 993). I should think a 1.13.01 is quite realistic next time Im out on this track in Jan. I believe footage from such a lap would look fractionally more ragged. There is no doubt there is a further 1s a lap in teh car (1.12.01) but Ill need an instructor and a fair bit more experience with the car to get anywhere near there. The footage into the 1.12s will look a little less composed Im sure (faster transitions, more g force, harder braking, some tyre squeal more shuffling the wheel!).
P.S. Ignore the lack of Necksgen. I jumped into this car at the end of the day (had no intentions of using it on teh track - still had my tools in the boot, full tank of gas and cold tyres, threw the camera in it idled it for 10 mins to warm it and then took off! This was just after new engine).
P.P.S. If you played with the camber and geo more and upgraded the pads and fluid it would no doubt be quicker.
I should say that the driving experiences are very different. If you want raw you need a cup car or track dedicated car older gen. If you want fast with a larger room for error the GT3 is great. Ive never felt so in control as I did with that session (my best in the 993 is 1.16.8). All that said guys like Trackcar can give you better perspective as hes moved from 4.0RS and 3.8 GT3 now to 964 RSA (similar to my 993). He can tell you what the difference is like better than I.
We are way off topic so Ill go now..
So I have track experience in two cars separated by 20+ years of tech. The older car has moved beyond teh design remit to a quasi RS/Cup hot rod set up for the track and the newer car is 100% stock as it came from the factory.
I suspect that any modern day 911 would feel similar to my GT3 around the track when compared to my 993. An M3, Gallado or anything you really care to name would not give the rawness and feedback of my oldtimer. I have not driven a 997.2 GT3 around my track so I cannot compare but again I think it would seem less communicative with its more modern suspension, PSAM, number steering and stiffer chassis.
I havent really made a definitive conclusion here. I have organised a private track day in 6 weeks time to get seat time in both my cars back to back with an instructor. The GT3 is way stiffer and in some way that isolates the driver from what the individual wheels are doing. The steering certainly has less feedback than my 993 but then so does every modern 911 Ive driven by comparison. The 991 GT3 handles the speed and transitions so much more smoothly than my 993. I drive the GT3 on track with windows up and air con on (because I can!) and the 993 with window down a bit and air con off (because I need the extra power!). That may make a little difference. I think the performance envelope is much wider than I am used to with the 993. It seems more civilised at the speeds Im driving. There is much room for improvement.
To date Ive used the car in Sport Auto. I should mention I will be trying it in manual mode on the track from here on in to gain a bit more control. I think it will add a bit of drama to the driving although I expect it will not yield better times...
Below is a clip from my first every track session in the car. The 3-4 best lap times (10 lap session) were in teh low 1.14s. Best lap was 1.14.01. I hadnt visited this track for 15 months so there are two corners I turn in way too early and loose time and I havent quite sorted the sweeper out in this session. The best time in our group is a guy with much more experience than me on this track in a 997.2 GT3 on TrofeoR at 1.13.31. I can see 1 second a lap in my times immediately (didnt pick my mistakes up on the day till looking at the footage later). My brake points are far too conservative (used to the 993). I should think a 1.13.01 is quite realistic next time Im out on this track in Jan. I believe footage from such a lap would look fractionally more ragged. There is no doubt there is a further 1s a lap in teh car (1.12.01) but Ill need an instructor and a fair bit more experience with the car to get anywhere near there. The footage into the 1.12s will look a little less composed Im sure (faster transitions, more g force, harder braking, some tyre squeal more shuffling the wheel!).
P.S. Ignore the lack of Necksgen. I jumped into this car at the end of the day (had no intentions of using it on teh track - still had my tools in the boot, full tank of gas and cold tyres, threw the camera in it idled it for 10 mins to warm it and then took off! This was just after new engine).
P.P.S. If you played with the camber and geo more and upgraded the pads and fluid it would no doubt be quicker.
I should say that the driving experiences are very different. If you want raw you need a cup car or track dedicated car older gen. If you want fast with a larger room for error the GT3 is great. Ive never felt so in control as I did with that session (my best in the 993 is 1.16.8). All that said guys like Trackcar can give you better perspective as hes moved from 4.0RS and 3.8 GT3 now to 964 RSA (similar to my 993). He can tell you what the difference is like better than I.
We are way off topic so Ill go now..
11-17-2014, 09:26 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Interesting. When I rode in a 991 GT3 on track, from the passenger seat the car felt somewhat insulated compared to what I expected, and compared to the many other cars in which I've been in the passenger seat. The grip was there, and the suspension remained composed, but it felt like there was a lack of connected feeling with the pavement. Maybe I'll reach a different conclusion when in the driver's seat, and maybe it just takes some getting used to, but from your experience, is there any merit to what I'm saying?
11-17-2014, 09:40 PM
#24
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^ Due to my lack of seat time in the car, I could be way off base, but I wonder if the PASM is a key reason for why the car might feel a bit insulated. My reasoning is that, with the car being so comfortable on the road, with impressive ability to soak up bumps, yet stiff enough on the track, PASM may be very active in varying the damping, with a benefit in terms of grip but maybe some reduction in intimately feeling what's happening at each contact patch.
11-17-2014, 09:55 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
2-3 years in a spec Miata? Certainly there is value in learning with a momentum car, and absolutely zero driving aids. Learn to truly understand what your inputs do to the car. No stability control, torque vectoring, etc. But to limit yourself to a Miata for years sounds like self administered water boarding to me. Drive something that stirs your soul (and maybe scares you a little bit)...at least that's been my approach.
I think it really comes down to how dedicated you are, how often you will drive and how far you want to take it. DE? TT? Cup Race? Other? Regardless, a dedicated track car will always trump a street car in learning and enjoyment. And as all will tell you, it's a sinisterly slippery slope...so be weary of the wallet.
Far more important than the car, though, is the coach. Get instruction...often. And have a blast!
I think it really comes down to how dedicated you are, how often you will drive and how far you want to take it. DE? TT? Cup Race? Other? Regardless, a dedicated track car will always trump a street car in learning and enjoyment. And as all will tell you, it's a sinisterly slippery slope...so be weary of the wallet.
Far more important than the car, though, is the coach. Get instruction...often. And have a blast!
11-17-2014, 10:15 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
^ Due to my lack of seat time in the car, I could be way off base, but I wonder if the PASM is a key reason for why the car might feel a bit insulated. My reasoning is that, with the car being so comfortable on the road, with impressive ability to soak up bumps, yet stiff enough on the track, PASM may be very active in varying the damping, with a benefit in terms of grip but maybe some reduction in intimately feeling what's happening at each contact patch.
Miata is good but we dont have this in NZ as a series. In NZ all the top drivers (NZ has a number of very competitive international drivers right now for a small country of 4 million as you may know with current top seeds driving 919, Nascar, touring car champs and Carrera Cup Asia Pacific champ). The path way I am told is CARTS. Then either formula Ford or GT86 Cup then Carrera Cut or touring car. The young fellas start in carts to cut their teeth and have no issues with flappy paddles and two pedal set ups....
I think the Miata or GT86 would be a great place to start for us older fellas.
11-17-2014, 11:57 PM
#27
So I have been thinking about tracking me the gt3 next year.and was wondering if you think it's smarter to get a 2008-9 cayman to learn on first. Do I want to take a chance with gt3 . I'll be doing pca education classes . I have bin on the track about 4-5 time in the last 2 years. I want to really get serious about it. And maybe getting a track day car is a better idea then to risk the gt3 on the track. Will it cost me more to have the GT3 on the track then the cayman ? I was also thinking about getting a trailer for the tires and towing the. To the track. Do should The street tires on the car to learn on. Looks like I'm getting my car in 30 day I can't wait .
Two totally different cars, driven very, very differently, especially at limits.
If you're new to HPDE, I don't believe you'd be close to either car's limits yet? That said, learn the "school lines" in the GT3 since you're obviously one of the few blessed with ownership. There's a lot to be said about familiarity and mileage in one platform.
11-18-2014, 12:58 AM
#28
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So I have been thinking about tracking me the gt3 next year.and was wondering if you think it's smarter to get a 2008-9 cayman to learn on first. Do I want to take a chance with gt3 . I'll be doing pca education classes . I have bin on the track about 4-5 time in the last 2 years. I want to really get serious about it. And maybe getting a track day car is a better idea then to risk the gt3 on the track. Will it cost me more to have the GT3 on the track then the cayman ? I was also thinking about getting a trailer for the tires and towing the. To the track. Do should The street tires on the car to learn on. Looks like I'm getting my car in 30 day I can't wait .
11-18-2014, 02:34 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
I have a 997.1 gt3 which I have tracked the past two years. I first drove s c4s 911 with PdK for a year before getting the gt3. Took awhile to learn heel toe. Have buckets and 6 pt harnesses for safety. Whatever you learn on coaching is key to getting better whether local track or driving schools. May only take the 991gt3 out to the track a few times due to cost of track insurance. Lucky to be able to keep both.