No More PTS on any cars?
11-15-2014, 07:50 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
11-15-2014, 10:16 PM
#49
Connecting the dots...
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...y-pts-gt3.html
And this could be our second clue as to why PTS has just been put on hold at PAG (I'll talk about our first clue in one minute). Quality control issues on exterior painted parts needed for final assembly of a gt3 and other models. Remember that outside vendors are supplying complete modules & parts (e.g. bumpers, rear deck w. spoiler) to PAG already painted & ready for the final assembly process at Zuffenhausen. This 'Aqua Blue' gt3 could be the poster child of what is going wrong with PTS at the moment - a breakdown of production & quality controls (incorrect deliveries of 'just-in-time', or below-par 'color matching' of parts, etc).
Our first clue came earlier this summer on this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...or-is-off.html
'Front Bumper Color is Off'. That on a 991 gt3 that was not even PTS. Yet the system (whether in-house paint dept or outside vendor of bumper, which is delivered 'painted') was experiencing difficulty matching 'white'!
And some of you might remember what I posted back then:
The bumpers are not only painted separately...they even perhaps by-passed Zuffenhausen's paint booth altogether and were painted by an outside vendor & delivered fully assembled for 'just-in-time' and 'just-in-sequence' at the final assembly line at Porsche!
As an aside, if you think 'White' is hard to match on the plastic bumper of a gt3, imagine PAG's Quality Control engineers or the bean counters in their Warranty Department enormous concern (technical & financial) for matching PTS colors on those bumpers and avoiding this type of warranty issues on those special custom-paint cars!!!! If you look it from their perspective, they would cancel PTS and CXX special options in a nano-second. That PTS is still alive at Porsche is a miracle...regardless the $5500 expense. The engineers and accountants would rather not take the risk of the warranty claims. And if you look at the expense of feasibility study for color, PTS paint ordering & handling process, the additional logistical issues involved in coordinating all the painted parts that goes into a vehicle (e.g. a gt3) and the accounting reserves in case of warranty claims, PAG might be able to make the case they break even, or lose money, on each PTS order they sell! What they gain by PTS is not profit...but the ability to satisfy a client with the ultimate personal customization of his/her vehicle, something which is not often offered by the competition. That is the key benefit of PTS & 'Porsche Exclusive'. Remember all of this when you hear folks complaining about the 'high cost' of PTS at Porsche...it's a bargain in my opinion.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
Photo One: OP's gt3
Photo Two: Macca's gt3
Photo Three: PTS color code z10 'orange' 997 Turbo with NOT fully matching plastic vs metal paint coloring which I photographed in 2012 at the Historics. That is why some colors are not approved for PTS or are discontinued from production if something like this is discovered with time - to avoid warranty complaints & warranty claims down the line for the manufacturer!
.
As an aside, if you think 'White' is hard to match on the plastic bumper of a gt3, imagine PAG's Quality Control engineers or the bean counters in their Warranty Department enormous concern (technical & financial) for matching PTS colors on those bumpers and avoiding this type of warranty issues on those special custom-paint cars!!!! If you look it from their perspective, they would cancel PTS and CXX special options in a nano-second. That PTS is still alive at Porsche is a miracle...regardless the $5500 expense. The engineers and accountants would rather not take the risk of the warranty claims. And if you look at the expense of feasibility study for color, PTS paint ordering & handling process, the additional logistical issues involved in coordinating all the painted parts that goes into a vehicle (e.g. a gt3) and the accounting reserves in case of warranty claims, PAG might be able to make the case they break even, or lose money, on each PTS order they sell! What they gain by PTS is not profit...but the ability to satisfy a client with the ultimate personal customization of his/her vehicle, something which is not often offered by the competition. That is the key benefit of PTS & 'Porsche Exclusive'. Remember all of this when you hear folks complaining about the 'high cost' of PTS at Porsche...it's a bargain in my opinion.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
Photo One: OP's gt3
Photo Two: Macca's gt3
Photo Three: PTS color code z10 'orange' 997 Turbo with NOT fully matching plastic vs metal paint coloring which I photographed in 2012 at the Historics. That is why some colors are not approved for PTS or are discontinued from production if something like this is discovered with time - to avoid warranty complaints & warranty claims down the line for the manufacturer!
.
Finally, we have the case of PeteyDaddy's PTS 'Maritime Blau' paint. A just delivered 991 gt3 that had 'issues' with the paint:
A decision then is made at the highest level of the company: Let's re-evaluate PTS at PAG - how we do it, who does it, how much problems it's causing, what is our true costs & profits (if any), what are our extra liabilities & warranty costs, what improvements can we make to our program, including better coordination with our vendors & improved logistics for arrival at assembly as 'needed' - and then decide if we should continue to offer it with the new MY2016.
Dots connected...perhaps.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
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11-16-2014, 01:45 AM
#51
11-16-2014, 02:03 AM
#52
Does anyone have a sense of how often paint issues (regardless of PTS) occur in general and historically? Maybe this is simply par for the course, but now in an internet age we all can compare notes, and word of the rare hiccup travels around the world instantly as opposed to being simply a solitary customer's anecdote.
On the other hand, if this does represent a real uptick in quality / production issues (paint, bolt, bucket delay, thermostat, 18-way configuration, fender liner,...), then I wonder what might lie ahead on the reliability front for us if more gremlins arise. Cat A/B 2014s may yet be thanking their lucky stars as their warranty is extended! For now, I'm still trusting that German engineering will win out over the miscues.
On the other hand, if this does represent a real uptick in quality / production issues (paint, bolt, bucket delay, thermostat, 18-way configuration, fender liner,...), then I wonder what might lie ahead on the reliability front for us if more gremlins arise. Cat A/B 2014s may yet be thanking their lucky stars as their warranty is extended! For now, I'm still trusting that German engineering will win out over the miscues.
11-16-2014, 02:50 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
On the clear coat not being dry issue. It could be a film adhesive issue. I dealt with a lot of issues with protective film on various stainless steels. The film is used for both handling protection and protection during forming. The film itself, the adhesive and the release agents are all individually specified. It's possible the adhesive itself could have caused pitting. I've seen it happen on appliances. However, if it was a film issue they would have had the problem on more than just one car.
11-16-2014, 09:48 AM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Does anyone have a sense of how often paint issues (regardless of PTS) occur in general and historically? Maybe this is simply par for the course, but now in an internet age we all can compare notes, and word of the rare hiccup travels around the world instantly as opposed to being simply a solitary customer's anecdote.
On the other hand, if this does represent a real uptick in quality / production issues (paint, bolt, bucket delay, thermostat, 18-way configuration, fender liner,...), then I wonder what might lie ahead on the reliability front for us if more gremlins arise. Cat A/B 2014s may yet be thanking their lucky stars as their warranty is extended! For now, I'm still trusting that German engineering will win out over the miscues.
On the other hand, if this does represent a real uptick in quality / production issues (paint, bolt, bucket delay, thermostat, 18-way configuration, fender liner,...), then I wonder what might lie ahead on the reliability front for us if more gremlins arise. Cat A/B 2014s may yet be thanking their lucky stars as their warranty is extended! For now, I'm still trusting that German engineering will win out over the miscues.
11-16-2014, 12:24 PM
#56
The rate of problems is not likely the issue, but rather the underlying corporate philosophy that either focuses on quality and customer service versus profit. When the demand for PTS increased the problem rate naturally increased as well. What had been a little PITA became a large PITA.
Also, if customer demand for highly popular options is creating backlogs (PTS, LW buckets), then hopefully the response from PAG is not to eliminate the option, but rather to adjust production to accommodate the surge, even if it means adjusting the pricing to ensure profit. It would be a shame if options like PTS and LW buckets were dropped in the future on the GT3.
Hopefully PAG executive view the success of these sorts of special options as an opportunity to increase profitability, either directly from these sales, or more importantly indirectly through the halo car effect. Whether PTS makes sense in high volume models like the C2, Macan, etc, is a different debate; and while it would be sad to see PTS dropped there, I would be hugely disappointed if it were denied in the future for cars at the pinnacle of Porsche's lineup. Just my opinion.
11-16-2014, 12:39 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
The rate of problems is not likely the issue, but rather the underlying corporate philosophy that either focuses on quality and customer service versus profit. When the demand for PTS increased the problem rate naturally increased as well. What had been a little PITA became a large PITA.
11-16-2014, 12:42 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
You may be right. I only wonder whether there has been a change in the frequency to try to understand why the restriction on PTS happened now, versus earlier when PAG was acquired by VAG for instance. If the known occurrence of these sorts of issues has been just as high or higher in the past (i.e. now still a small PITA), then maybe there is no reason to implement this change in direction at this time, other than perhaps profits, supplier limitations, etc. However if it is becoming a larger PITA indeed, then this situation might explain everything.
Also, if customer demand for highly popular options is creating backlogs (PTS, LW buckets), then hopefully the response from PAG is not to eliminate the option, but rather to adjust production to accommodate the surge, even if it means adjusting the pricing to ensure profit. It would be a shame if options like PTS and LW buckets were dropped in the future on the GT3.
Hopefully PAG executive view the success of these sorts of special options as an opportunity to increase profitability, either directly from these sales, or more importantly indirectly through the halo car effect. Whether PTS makes sense in high volume models like the C2, Macan, etc, is a different debate; and while it would be sad to see PTS dropped there, I would be hugely disappointed if it were denied in the future for cars at the pinnacle of Porsche's lineup. Just my opinion.
Also, if customer demand for highly popular options is creating backlogs (PTS, LW buckets), then hopefully the response from PAG is not to eliminate the option, but rather to adjust production to accommodate the surge, even if it means adjusting the pricing to ensure profit. It would be a shame if options like PTS and LW buckets were dropped in the future on the GT3.
Hopefully PAG executive view the success of these sorts of special options as an opportunity to increase profitability, either directly from these sales, or more importantly indirectly through the halo car effect. Whether PTS makes sense in high volume models like the C2, Macan, etc, is a different debate; and while it would be sad to see PTS dropped there, I would be hugely disappointed if it were denied in the future for cars at the pinnacle of Porsche's lineup. Just my opinion.
11-16-2014, 01:59 PM
#59
Three Wheelin'
I completely agree with you. I work in a large organization where I am at the bottom of the management pyramid. Yet what I do is the central reason for the entire purpose of the organization. Nevertheless the upper tier of management is entirely removed from any comprehension about what I do. Their decisions and policies are often utterly disconnected from the day to day working of the organization. When their efforts fail they are typically perplexed. My question is whether or not this is becoming the case at Porsche under VW.
