Compensation
04-11-2014, 12:40 AM
#736
Rennlist Member
I agree that Porsche's characterization of the payment will influence the reporting of the payment. If it's paid to an individual over $600, it must be reported on a Form 1099. IRS matches these, so it absolutely needs to be on your tax return. Or, expect a nasty gram for IRS -- they're actually good at matching.
I'm not giving tax advice here. I'm not privy to all the details of what Porsche is offering either, but generally speaking, if it's a gray area, it's usually taxable.
Let's see how Porsche presents it. But this entire thread is called "Compensation" and that's what it sounds like to me.
I'm not giving tax advice here. I'm not privy to all the details of what Porsche is offering either, but generally speaking, if it's a gray area, it's usually taxable.
Let's see how Porsche presents it. But this entire thread is called "Compensation" and that's what it sounds like to me.
04-11-2014, 01:47 AM
#738
04-11-2014, 02:32 AM
#740
Drifting
I've read though today's posts and I'm unclear about something regarding the $2K per month compensation.
Does the $2K apply both to buyers who have their cars stuck at port but have never paid for them, as well as buyers who have actually taken possession of and paid for their cars?
How can compensation be the same for someone who has had no car, been out of pocket $150K for 3-4 months, and been paying insurance and fees, as it is for someone who to date has had no car but also no financial exposure?
Mark? Anyone?
Does the $2K apply both to buyers who have their cars stuck at port but have never paid for them, as well as buyers who have actually taken possession of and paid for their cars?
How can compensation be the same for someone who has had no car, been out of pocket $150K for 3-4 months, and been paying insurance and fees, as it is for someone who to date has had no car but also no financial exposure?
Mark? Anyone?
04-11-2014, 03:02 AM
#741
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
^^^^ Strongly disagree. Doesnt make any sense. I like many ROW customers was due for September 2013 production. The factory delayed production due to "issues unknown". My car was not manufactured for another 3 months. I didnt ask for compensation. Neither did anyone else. Nor did we expect it.
Why should someone with 10K of risk money on a car which is late being delivered get the same treatment as someone who has bought the car, had it delivered driven it for a month or two and now can not longer drive it these last 2 months.
In my country the term deposit interest rate on this money would be paying 5% (not all countries have free money like USA and UK/Europe). Furthermore Im $2200 USD for 12 months insurance, then there is annual road registration and I have missed a two week track tour that was planned and paid for before the stop sale. I havent got a loan car and I have been inconvenienced.
I think there should be three levels of comp. Those who have landed registered and were using the car, those who had a car manufacturered and due to be delivered around the time of the stop sale and during the period of the "stop sale" and those who have had their orders significantly shifted as a result of the stop sale.
Just my 2c
Why should someone with 10K of risk money on a car which is late being delivered get the same treatment as someone who has bought the car, had it delivered driven it for a month or two and now can not longer drive it these last 2 months.
In my country the term deposit interest rate on this money would be paying 5% (not all countries have free money like USA and UK/Europe). Furthermore Im $2200 USD for 12 months insurance, then there is annual road registration and I have missed a two week track tour that was planned and paid for before the stop sale. I havent got a loan car and I have been inconvenienced.
I think there should be three levels of comp. Those who have landed registered and were using the car, those who had a car manufacturered and due to be delivered around the time of the stop sale and during the period of the "stop sale" and those who have had their orders significantly shifted as a result of the stop sale.
Just my 2c
04-11-2014, 03:08 AM
#742
Race Director
Mike--guys in your group should get all of that AND the money at the $4k / month rate AND either an extra 2 years warranty (since months of it are eaten up with this fiasco...) OR reset warranty to date of engine swap. Although, my bet is that the it would be easier (warranty contract wise...) to simply give your group a 2 year extension than to play with trying to reset the start date.
Doesn't that sound at least close to fair?
Doesn't that sound at least close to fair?
Mike, I respectfully disagree. I think the compensation should be the same across the board for all regardless if you have taken delivery or not, In US or in Kuwait, etc.. I would love to have taken delivery of my car and have it parked in my garage rather than dumped at the port for 3 months and I don't mind the $600 insurance for six months and another $700 in registration fee's. The interest on $150K in the bank is not much these days either. Enough said.
Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that people whose cars are still in port shouldn't be treated generously and I'm making no claims as to whether $2K a month is fair treatment for them. I also understand the issues facing cars that might be exposed to the elements.
But regardless of whether someone minds the cost of insurance and fees, those are tangible costs that some of us are bearing and others aren't. More than that, with taxes and fees the car cost me close to $170K which was pulled from my investment accounts. I'm earning many times more from my investments than I would from a typical bank savings account, and I'm sure your investments are too. Your $170K (less deposit) is still working away; mine isn't. There should be an allowance made for that; that's all I'm saying.
04-11-2014, 03:13 AM
#743
Rennlist Member
I've read though today's posts and I'm unclear about something regarding the $2K per month compensation.
Does the $2K apply both to buyers who have their cars stuck at port but have never paid for them, as well as buyers who have actually taken possession of and paid for their cars?
How can compensation be the same for someone who has had no car, been out of pocket $150K for 3-4 months, and been paying insurance and fees, as it is for someone who to date has had no car but also no financial exposure?
Mark? Anyone?
Does the $2K apply both to buyers who have their cars stuck at port but have never paid for them, as well as buyers who have actually taken possession of and paid for their cars?
How can compensation be the same for someone who has had no car, been out of pocket $150K for 3-4 months, and been paying insurance and fees, as it is for someone who to date has had no car but also no financial exposure?
Mark? Anyone?
Yes indeed both are being offered the same cash offer and same warranty extension. My understanding the people who have not taken possession will not be offered the alternate option to pick the free tires and 3 yr free normal routine service instead of the cash like we do.
As matter of fact in our case the one year extended warranty is not really a full year extended warranty as by the time we pick our cars 6 months or more have passed , so we will be getting only 6 months, versus the people who have not taken possession will have full 5 years from the time they get their cars.
I have been on the phone for hours today with some of my trusted friends who work at Porsche and they are all shocked by this offer and some proceeded to give me some facts that I did not really think about before, but the bottom line Porsche will try at all costs to persuade us of not returning these cars as their loss will probably be estimated on the average around $60K per car, if they would buy the car back, and in my other post I explain the logic behind this. I guess the dealership will not share any burden with Porsche factory and will not return any profit they made or any future profit they would make reselling these cars, and not counting the sales tax they need to reimburse us and any other expenses out of pocket. PAG at the end is a business and will always try to mitigate their losses, and will pick the route that yields the least losses for them. I really feel they sent this unfair offer to test the waters and gauge our reactions, and if only couple of people are unhappy with this initial offer, they will run with it, otherwise I expect major changes, but we must let them know and quickly. I am sure they monitor this board religiously, so it is critical to show our dissatisfaction. For me I am really troubled by the double standards, rather than the actual amounts. I just don't like people to take advantage of me, the same way I don't want or like to take advantage of others. I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them. Mark
04-11-2014, 03:27 AM
#744
Rennlist Member
Mike, I respectfully disagree. I think the compensation should be the same across the board for all regardless if you have taken delivery or not, In US or in Kuwait, etc.. I would love to have taken delivery of my car and have it parked in my garage rather than dumped at the port for 3 months and I don't mind the $600 insurance for six months and another $700 in registration fee's. The interest on $150K in the bank is not much these days either. Enough said.
Although I do understand where you are coming from on this but I have to point out that people who are financing this car are now paying money to the bank every month to drive a car they can't drive, and not counting the high insurance some pay for cars like this. So there is an actual money implication to people who have taken possession of the car. Even for the people who have paid cash like myself and Mike, we could be using the money to invest in Stocks or earn interest somewhere. Remember I have a branch office for my US company in Dubai and banks there, unlike the US pay extremely high interest rates on large sums of money sitting in the bank. So there has to be an additional compensation for people who have actually made full financial commitments to Porsche, and have car payments & insurance premiums to pay. I think thats what Mike is talking about.
Aside from that the rest should be the same, although I feel you guys should have an additional compensation to account for your cars sitting at ports exposed to nasty environment, and that can be done by offering you additional discounts or perhaps 3 additional years of corrosion warranty & perhaps even paint warranty as well. Just to be fair. Mark
04-11-2014, 03:33 AM
#745
Race Director
Mike... sorry did not see this till now.
Yes indeed both are being offered the same cash offer and same warranty extension. My understanding the people who have not taken possession will not be offered the alternate option to pick the free tires and 3 yr free normal routine service instead of the cash like we do.
As matter of fact in our case the one year extended warranty is not really a full year extended warranty as by the time we pick our cars 6 months or more have passed , so we will be getting only 6 months, versus the people who have not taken possession will have full 5 years from the time they get their cars.
I have been on the phone for hours today with some of my trusted friends who work at Porsche and they are all shocked by this offer and some proceeded to give me some facts that I did not really think about before, but the bottom line Porsche will try at all costs to persuade us of not returning these cars as their loss will probably be estimated on the average around $60K per car, if they would buy the car back, and in my other post I explain the logic behind this. I guess the dealership will not share any burden with Porsche factory and will not return any profit they made or any future profit they would make reselling these cars, and not counting the sales tax they need to reimburse us and any other expenses out of pocket. PAG at the end is a business and will always try to mitigate their losses, and will pick the route they yield the least losses for them. I really feel they sent this unfair offer to test the waters and gauge our reactions, and if only couple of people are unhappy with this initial offer, they will run with it, otherwise I expect major changes, but we must let them know and quickly. I am sure they monitor this board religiously, so it is critical to show our dissatisfaction. For me I am really troubled by the double standards, rather than the actual amounts. I just don't like people to take advantage of me, the same way I don't want or like to take advantage of others. I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them. Mark
Yes indeed both are being offered the same cash offer and same warranty extension. My understanding the people who have not taken possession will not be offered the alternate option to pick the free tires and 3 yr free normal routine service instead of the cash like we do.
As matter of fact in our case the one year extended warranty is not really a full year extended warranty as by the time we pick our cars 6 months or more have passed , so we will be getting only 6 months, versus the people who have not taken possession will have full 5 years from the time they get their cars.
I have been on the phone for hours today with some of my trusted friends who work at Porsche and they are all shocked by this offer and some proceeded to give me some facts that I did not really think about before, but the bottom line Porsche will try at all costs to persuade us of not returning these cars as their loss will probably be estimated on the average around $60K per car, if they would buy the car back, and in my other post I explain the logic behind this. I guess the dealership will not share any burden with Porsche factory and will not return any profit they made or any future profit they would make reselling these cars, and not counting the sales tax they need to reimburse us and any other expenses out of pocket. PAG at the end is a business and will always try to mitigate their losses, and will pick the route they yield the least losses for them. I really feel they sent this unfair offer to test the waters and gauge our reactions, and if only couple of people are unhappy with this initial offer, they will run with it, otherwise I expect major changes, but we must let them know and quickly. I am sure they monitor this board religiously, so it is critical to show our dissatisfaction. For me I am really troubled by the double standards, rather than the actual amounts. I just don't like people to take advantage of me, the same way I don't want or like to take advantage of others. I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them. Mark
04-11-2014, 03:35 AM
#746
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
PAG at the end is a business and will always try to mitigate their losses, and will pick the route that yields the least losses for them. I really feel they sent this unfair offer to test the waters and gauge our reactions, and if only couple of people are unhappy with this initial offer, they will run with it, otherwise I expect major changes, but we must let them know and quickly. I am sure they monitor this board religiously, so it is critical to show our dissatisfaction. For me I am really troubled by the double standards, rather than the actual amounts. I just don't like people to take advantage of me, the same way I don't want or like to take advantage of others. I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them. Mark
On the Pistonheads site we have a list of members that accounts for more than 60% of all 108 x 991 GT3 units delivered and registered in the UK up until the Stop Sale. As you are aware an initiative was started there in the last 24 hours to remedy this "communication breakdown" between customer and PAG.
Interestingly I floated to that board that this board could benefit by being part of a ROW campaign. Unfortunately of the 137 or so 991 GT3 estimated to be already delivered and registered in the USA only a very small proportion of owners are on this board. I think excluding members from non US/Canada country I can probably list around 20 folk here that physically own the car already.
Even more surprising was the resistance that has surfaced with offline participation in a campaign to try and help our friends at PAG understand that there communications and PR are substandard here and that in this age of the interweb we will do what we can to unit in order to be treated fairly and not be screwed.
By and large most 991 GT3 owners are enthusiasts of the brand and spirited driving. This may no longer be a segment of significant fiscal benefit to PAG in their go forward model, however by nature many of us are successful in our business in our middle ages and are used to dealing in a professional and bipartisan way when conducting our financial, business and personal affairs. We therefore find it abhorrent to be treated like children in such situations.
For me there is too much noise on this board from "non stake holders" and its drowning out those who need there POVs heard by PAG. I thus have elected to join the "offline" group to formalise and crystallise my/our views in a constructive campaign.
Each to their own I guess.
04-11-2014, 03:44 AM
#747
Rennlist Member
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Mike, I respectfully disagree. I think the compensation should be the same across the board for all regardless if you have taken delivery or not, In US or in Kuwait, etc.. I would love to have taken delivery of my car and have it parked in my garage rather than dumped at the port for 3 months and I don't mind the $600 insurance for six months and another $700 in registration fee's. The interest on $150K in the bank is not much these days either. Enough said.
On a separate note, I do not get Porsche on this one, if they skimp or make the experience unpleasant, as they have been doing so far. This is cheap way for them to strengthen of weaken the brand. Now brands are not built by advertising or positioning copy but by words that most passionate customers use to describe their experiences with those brands. Cayenne owners don't create brands (no offense - I have one myself, or rather my wife does without even realizing it, it's just a "the gray car" for her). It's GT3 drivers and their likes that do.
I do marketing for living since puberty, so I have no sentimental brand loyalty, and ads/PR impress me like dead bodies impress a coroner. But even despite professional cynicism, I was sold on Porsche by enthusiasts with fire in their eyes.
Similarly, I know for a fact that my little casual story about how I drift that one left-hand corner on my way to gym in my M3 - a precise tiny slide, without putting anything at risk or even breaking the speed limit; just getting my pulse up by controlling something that seems out of control to a bystander - sold at least 3-4 people on BMW as a brand. They all bought X5s and 328s, and most of them are not going to track their cars ever, but they followed that passion they saw. It's powerful and contagious, and with relatively bland routine of our lives, we all crave it and follow/copy others who find it. That's how you build a modern luxury brand and sell a ton of SUV and cruisers at a premium - not with ads. Porsche has a chance to reinforce their brand or stunt it with a VERY small amount of money and effort on the line. I do not get why they would pick the wrong option - it's so simple. But big/old companies make mistakes all the time, so who knows.
04-11-2014, 08:28 AM
#748
Rennlist Member
Absolutely agree Mark. I am hoping the coin will finally drop for some US based owners on this board.
On the Pistonheads site we have a list of members that accounts for more than 60% of all 108 x 991 GT3 units delivered and registered in the UK up until the Stop Sale. As you are aware an initiative was started there in the last 24 hours to remedy this "communication breakdown" between customer and PAG.
Interestingly I floated to that board that this board could benefit by being part of a ROW campaign. Unfortunately of the 137 or so 991 GT3 estimated to be already delivered and registered in the USA only a very small proportion of owners are on this board. I think excluding members from non US/Canada country I can probably list around 20 folk here that physically own the car already.
Even more surprising was the resistance that has surfaced with offline participation in a campaign to try and help our friends at PAG understand that there communications and PR are substandard here and that in this age of the interweb we will do what we can to unit in order to be treated fairly and not be screwed.
By and large most 991 GT3 owners are enthusiasts of the brand and spirited driving. This may no longer be a segment of significant fiscal benefit to PAG in their go forward model, however by nature many of us are successful in our business in our middle ages and are used to dealing in a professional and bipartisan way when conducting our financial, business and personal affairs. We therefore find it abhorrent to be treated like children in such situations.
For me there is too much noise on this board from "non stake holders" and its drowning out those who need there POVs heard by PAG. I thus have elected to join the "offline" group to formalise and crystallise my/our views in a constructive campaign.
Each to their own I guess.
On the Pistonheads site we have a list of members that accounts for more than 60% of all 108 x 991 GT3 units delivered and registered in the UK up until the Stop Sale. As you are aware an initiative was started there in the last 24 hours to remedy this "communication breakdown" between customer and PAG.
Interestingly I floated to that board that this board could benefit by being part of a ROW campaign. Unfortunately of the 137 or so 991 GT3 estimated to be already delivered and registered in the USA only a very small proportion of owners are on this board. I think excluding members from non US/Canada country I can probably list around 20 folk here that physically own the car already.
Even more surprising was the resistance that has surfaced with offline participation in a campaign to try and help our friends at PAG understand that there communications and PR are substandard here and that in this age of the interweb we will do what we can to unit in order to be treated fairly and not be screwed.
By and large most 991 GT3 owners are enthusiasts of the brand and spirited driving. This may no longer be a segment of significant fiscal benefit to PAG in their go forward model, however by nature many of us are successful in our business in our middle ages and are used to dealing in a professional and bipartisan way when conducting our financial, business and personal affairs. We therefore find it abhorrent to be treated like children in such situations.
For me there is too much noise on this board from "non stake holders" and its drowning out those who need there POVs heard by PAG. I thus have elected to join the "offline" group to formalise and crystallise my/our views in a constructive campaign.
Each to their own I guess.
It really is not about the money for me, and I can care less to grab few extra bucks from them but I am troubled if I feel someone is taking advantage of me or treating me unfairly. I am also troubled with the communication breakdown.
I am going to add my name to the "communication breakdown" initiative, and I will do whatever it takes to support your efforts. We must find a better way to unite our efforts and send a strong message back to PAG. In case you need to reach me, you can always email me privately at mqandil@me.com
Mark
04-11-2014, 08:53 AM
#749
Rennlist Member
Indeed this is what sold me on Porsche, and I suspect sold so many other Porsche die hard fans. Mark
04-11-2014, 09:28 AM
#750
It really is not about the money for me, and I can care less to grab few extra bucks from them but I am troubled if I feel someone is taking advantage of me or treating me unfairly. I am also troubled with the communication breakdown.
I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them.
I can assure you the only reason Dubai is getting better deal is because people there bitch the loudest and complain constantly so they bent backwards for them.
So yes, I'm proud to be one of those people in Dubai. Yet I don't believe that I'm bitching and complaining. I didn't even visit the dealer since the stop-drive. Or called them. I merely responded to their calls, mails and letters and showed them why their stories or proposed package did not make any sense.
For example, the 12 months warranty. I asked them politely to explain to me why people who had their cars delivered and paid for should receive less (net) warranty out of this deal compared to the ones who didn't. I presented my case logically on why I thought it was wrong. About 24 hours later, it was approved.