Porsche 991 GT3 Wrecked In UK With Only 80 Miles On The Clock
02-24-2014, 12:20 AM
#121
Race Director
Jeremy Clarkson actually likes the GT3 a lot. The snippet was taken out of a piece he wrote. It does hold some truth to it if you've been around these cars long enough.
I dare say you would ****e yourself in my stock '67 attempting to attack a corner like you might in your GT3.
My 6GT3 isn't so different from the '67 in that it doesn't have any get out of jail free chips if you screw up. Neither car are forgiving of fools.
"Nanny" in the old days was bigger tires, a subsequent longer wheelbase and better suspension.
PSM, PASM, or whatever the contraption is that prematurely wears out the rear brakes ON THOSE cars is absent. (pay attention in the pits at your next track event)
NOTE: If the driver is doing his work and actually DRIVING the car and not letting Nanny do it for him the brakes will do just fine.
This is not X-Box or Playstation. No cheats allowed.
I dare say you would ****e yourself in my stock '67 attempting to attack a corner like you might in your GT3.
My 6GT3 isn't so different from the '67 in that it doesn't have any get out of jail free chips if you screw up. Neither car are forgiving of fools.
"Nanny" in the old days was bigger tires, a subsequent longer wheelbase and better suspension.
PSM, PASM, or whatever the contraption is that prematurely wears out the rear brakes ON THOSE cars is absent. (pay attention in the pits at your next track event)
NOTE: If the driver is doing his work and actually DRIVING the car and not letting Nanny do it for him the brakes will do just fine.
This is not X-Box or Playstation. No cheats allowed.
I dare say, your "lecture" is presumptuous and condescending regarding the relative driving experience of people who currently own or are buying 991 GT3's. My first sports car was a Lotus Europa Twin Cam that I bought in 1973, not far removed from your old Porsche in time, and technically not as sophisticated, with quirks of it's own. My first Porsche was an '84 Carrera that I bought new and drove for 13 years. Both cars were autocrossed and tracked extensively; of course no nannies of any kind in either one.
Your '67 Porsche wouldn't have presented a challenge that most serious 991 GT3 buyers aren't familiar with. I suspect almost all of us have been there and done that....
02-24-2014, 02:03 AM
#122
Rennlist Member
It will be interesting to see what Clarkson has to say, then, when the GT3 shows up on Top Gear.
I dare say, your "lecture" is presumptuous and condescending regarding the relative driving experience of people who currently own or are buying 991 GT3's. My first sports car was a Lotus Europa Twin Cam that I bought in 1973, not far removed from your old Porsche in time, and technically not as sophisticated, with quirks of it's own. My first Porsche was an '84 Carrera that I bought new and drove for 13 years. Both cars were autocrossed and tracked extensively; of course no nannies of any kind in either one.
Your '67 Porsche wouldn't have presented a challenge that most serious 991 GT3 buyers aren't familiar with. I suspect almost all of us have been there and done that....
I dare say, your "lecture" is presumptuous and condescending regarding the relative driving experience of people who currently own or are buying 991 GT3's. My first sports car was a Lotus Europa Twin Cam that I bought in 1973, not far removed from your old Porsche in time, and technically not as sophisticated, with quirks of it's own. My first Porsche was an '84 Carrera that I bought new and drove for 13 years. Both cars were autocrossed and tracked extensively; of course no nannies of any kind in either one.
Your '67 Porsche wouldn't have presented a challenge that most serious 991 GT3 buyers aren't familiar with. I suspect almost all of us have been there and done that....
FWIW: The Lotus handled much better than any early 911. If one showed up at an autocross all bets were off. Trouble was they stayed broken. There was more trouble to be found with well prepped Datsun 240Z's.
We are talking about amateurs here. What is "the most serious 991 buyer"? Are 991 GT3 buyers hand picked by the likes of Alwin Springer etc to own one? Laughable. Anybody can walk in and drop 6 figures. It takes no talent whatsoever, just the means to pay for it. While you yourself may be mature a lot of "kids" are buying these cars. Since males tend to do stupid things until all the snapses align in a way that self preservation becomes more important you will read further down these drivers aren't making sound decisions.
They are driving F18's and never did stick and rudder. I wouldn't ride in the dumb seat as an instructor unless it was an Abrams Tank. Too many stories from my instructor friends.
Last but not least to drive a point home. A very dear friend sent me a photo of freshly wrecked GT3 yesterday. Track damage. Pretty good job too but since the wheels were still on it I gave this amateur's attempt a "5 out of a possible 10".
As he said:
"they know everything, give them a weapon and they shoot themselves, and then blame the car!" *
02-24-2014, 02:26 AM
#123
Rennlist Member
Im a serious 991 GT3 owner.
I only know a handful of 991 GT3 owners well/personally, beyond the folks I have met on this board, Pistonheads UK and Rennteam. They all are multiple/serial P-car owners from the stone age upwards.
I agree each new generation becomes more automated and attracts a slightly different audience. And yes some of these folk dont know how to control a 500 bhp car. That being said in my country we get our lisence at 15 and japanese imports are dirt cheap. Often an 18 years olds car is a highly modified ex Japanese WRX STI with chip and exhaust making 340 bhp. It might have a stick and rudder but that doesnt stop a beginner driver killing himself.
I drove a 1968 911 2.0 once. It was just after a ride in a 356 Carrera 4 cam (which was quicker). It was crap and tried to kill me, but i dealt with it (I can heel & toe and LFB - but I didnt use either in the 2.0). Too bloody right when you say "I dare say you would ****e yourself in my stock '67 attempting to attack a corner like you might in your GT3". I agree 120%. A 1.6 Hertz Toyota Corolla corners better. But that's not the point I guess with the old girls. They are for cruising and collecting (more the latter these days than the former unfortunately). I took a drive in a 73RS not long after and that was alot more sorted. I still think they are over rated by hype however.
The 996.1 Gt3 I had was "fit for purpose". Great engine but overall felt very sterile when compared to the 993RS I sold to buy it (a mistake!). If you really want to own something in between the generations that is rewarding buy a (ROW) 964RS. No "armatures" for that beasty. Blood hard ride though on back roads....
Im not sure where your posts are going. Agreed buying public getting younger and less experienced and cars such as 911, GTR, Lambo etc getting easier to drive fast and have more safety nets for when it goes all sideways at 200kmph. Obviously you are a "serious" driver. Appart form that I didnt learn so much. You could make it up to me by posting pictures of that 991 GT3 track wreck though?
I only know a handful of 991 GT3 owners well/personally, beyond the folks I have met on this board, Pistonheads UK and Rennteam. They all are multiple/serial P-car owners from the stone age upwards.
I agree each new generation becomes more automated and attracts a slightly different audience. And yes some of these folk dont know how to control a 500 bhp car. That being said in my country we get our lisence at 15 and japanese imports are dirt cheap. Often an 18 years olds car is a highly modified ex Japanese WRX STI with chip and exhaust making 340 bhp. It might have a stick and rudder but that doesnt stop a beginner driver killing himself.
I drove a 1968 911 2.0 once. It was just after a ride in a 356 Carrera 4 cam (which was quicker). It was crap and tried to kill me, but i dealt with it (I can heel & toe and LFB - but I didnt use either in the 2.0). Too bloody right when you say "I dare say you would ****e yourself in my stock '67 attempting to attack a corner like you might in your GT3". I agree 120%. A 1.6 Hertz Toyota Corolla corners better. But that's not the point I guess with the old girls. They are for cruising and collecting (more the latter these days than the former unfortunately). I took a drive in a 73RS not long after and that was alot more sorted. I still think they are over rated by hype however.
The 996.1 Gt3 I had was "fit for purpose". Great engine but overall felt very sterile when compared to the 993RS I sold to buy it (a mistake!). If you really want to own something in between the generations that is rewarding buy a (ROW) 964RS. No "armatures" for that beasty. Blood hard ride though on back roads....
Im not sure where your posts are going. Agreed buying public getting younger and less experienced and cars such as 911, GTR, Lambo etc getting easier to drive fast and have more safety nets for when it goes all sideways at 200kmph. Obviously you are a "serious" driver. Appart form that I didnt learn so much. You could make it up to me by posting pictures of that 991 GT3 track wreck though?
Last edited by Macca; 02-24-2014 at 03:20 AM.
02-24-2014, 03:13 AM
#124
Race Director
This is why Clarkson might have originally hated Porsches.
FWIW: The Lotus handled much better than any early 911. If one showed up at an autocross all bets were off. Trouble was they stayed broken. There was more trouble to be found with well prepped Datsun 240Z's.
We are talking about amateurs here. What is "the most serious 991 buyer"? Are 991 GT3 buyers hand picked by the likes of Alwin Springer etc to own one? Laughable. Anybody can walk in and drop 6 figures. It takes no talent whatsoever, just the means to pay for it. While you yourself may be mature a lot of "kids" are buying these cars. Since males tend to do stupid things until all the snapses align in a way that self preservation becomes more important you will read further down these drivers aren't making sound decisions.
They are driving F18's and never did stick and rudder. I wouldn't ride in the dumb seat as an instructor unless it was an Abrams Tank. Too many stories from my instructor friends.
Last but not least to drive a point home. A very dear friend sent me a photo of freshly wrecked GT3 yesterday. Track damage. Pretty good job too but since the wheels were still on it I gave this amateur's attempt a "5 out of a possible 10".
As he said:
"they know everything, give them a weapon and they shoot themselves, and then blame the car!" *
FWIW: The Lotus handled much better than any early 911. If one showed up at an autocross all bets were off. Trouble was they stayed broken. There was more trouble to be found with well prepped Datsun 240Z's.
We are talking about amateurs here. What is "the most serious 991 buyer"? Are 991 GT3 buyers hand picked by the likes of Alwin Springer etc to own one? Laughable. Anybody can walk in and drop 6 figures. It takes no talent whatsoever, just the means to pay for it. While you yourself may be mature a lot of "kids" are buying these cars. Since males tend to do stupid things until all the snapses align in a way that self preservation becomes more important you will read further down these drivers aren't making sound decisions.
They are driving F18's and never did stick and rudder. I wouldn't ride in the dumb seat as an instructor unless it was an Abrams Tank. Too many stories from my instructor friends.
Last but not least to drive a point home. A very dear friend sent me a photo of freshly wrecked GT3 yesterday. Track damage. Pretty good job too but since the wheels were still on it I gave this amateur's attempt a "5 out of a possible 10".
As he said:
"they know everything, give them a weapon and they shoot themselves, and then blame the car!" *
I'm not interested in a pissing match, but the point is that while most are no doubt amateurs, many people buying 991 GT3's have had a lot of experience with no-nonsense driver's cars and aren't just looking for a status symbol; what I mean by "serious" buyers. If you read this forum regularly, and knew the background of some of the people, you'd realize that. Otherwise, to just make assumptions is presumptuous. The "they are driving F18's and never did stick and rudder" line is clever, but it's based solely on your personal prejudices about who you think is buying the car. I'm fairly certain the driving history and experience level of the 785 people who have purchased 991 GT3's hasn't been shared with you.
No doubt some who are purchasing this new car haven't had "stick and rudder" experience. In every generation there have always been people who bought cars because they could write the check, not because they had the skill to drive them reasonably well. Nothing new there. But to generalize ("I dare say you would ****e yourself in my stock '67") and condescend ("this is not X-Box or Playstation") without knowing anything about the people you're speaking to, now that's "laughable".
02-24-2014, 03:53 AM
#125
Burning Brakes
fortunately he had enough skill to keep himself intact.
Similarly, recall the much worked on Torana SLR 5000's earning a rather well deserved rep as "(organ) donor mobiles"...so what? Inherently youth, testosterone, and the male psyche will forever want to validate themselves in the pursuit of speed...
to wit, from a very long time ago, there is that little ship that did the "Kessel Run in 12 parsecs (sic)"
....yup a bucket of bolts...
02-24-2014, 08:39 AM
#126
Rennlist Member
How about we focus on the guy who tossed his car?
I am referring to inexperienced buyers and those who think they can drive.
The comment regarding X-Box and Playstation is an example of no consequences.
02-24-2014, 09:31 AM
#127
Rennlist Member
02-24-2014, 10:51 AM
#128
Race Director
02-24-2014, 12:52 PM
#129
Rennlist Member
Fair enough, and if that had been the focus of your original comment we could have had that discussion. But in response to my post about Clarkson, you specifically referred to me ("you")as having a potential problem with bowel control driving your '67 Porsche and proceeded to lecture me about driving a car without nannies. I also don't think it's fair to paint all 991 GT3 buyers with the same brush. Beyond that, we're good AFAIC.
We are fine. "You" really didn't mean "YOU". Perhaps "one might ****e himself" is better, eh?
PS: God Bless the co-pilot instructors who do their utmost to bring knowledge to those who hopefully "listen and learn".
Utopia would be a track day with no incidents. One where everyone hit their apexes perfectly, performed a flawless heel and toe downshifts and no metal was abused.
02-24-2014, 01:08 PM
#130
Rennlist Member
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Anyhow. .thx for creating awareness for us newbies. 
--Realizing I've reached a level of car where I can actually get in trouble.. Most cars are pretty tame and you don't run into this too frequent as it takes north of 250k to get this kind of performance unless you get a GT3, or know how to build cars..(except China these days.. LOL.. never seen so many wad ups on Gt Spirit)
Bikes are different. any kid can get a rocket for 12k that will send them into next week, and you see stats like USMC losing more men to sport bike's then actual combat.. -- thus the military now offering classes from Road Racers. (Star School). for anyone with a Sport Bike.. -- as much as I hate regulation, Race Training should be a requirement for anything that does zed-60 in under 3 seconds.. [Not just MC safety school, but high speed training, cause you KNOW they will go fast]
-Take a survey, and there is NO average driver.. Everyone's in the top 20%.. Hilarious..
--Realizing I've reached a level of car where I can actually get in trouble.. Most cars are pretty tame and you don't run into this too frequent as it takes north of 250k to get this kind of performance unless you get a GT3, or know how to build cars..(except China these days.. LOL.. never seen so many wad ups on Gt Spirit)
Bikes are different. any kid can get a rocket for 12k that will send them into next week, and you see stats like USMC losing more men to sport bike's then actual combat.. -- thus the military now offering classes from Road Racers. (Star School). for anyone with a Sport Bike.. -- as much as I hate regulation, Race Training should be a requirement for anything that does zed-60 in under 3 seconds.. [Not just MC safety school, but high speed training, cause you KNOW they will go fast]
-Take a survey, and there is NO average driver.. Everyone's in the top 20%.. Hilarious..
02-24-2014, 01:44 PM
#131
Rennlist Member
Anyhow. .thx for creating awareness for us newbies.
--Realizing I've reached a level of car where I can actually get in trouble.. Most cars are pretty tame and you don't run into this too frequent as it takes north of 250k to get this kind of performance unless you get a GT3, or know how to build cars..(except China these days.. LOL.. never seen so many wad ups on Gt Spirit)
Bikes are different. any kid can get a rocket for 12k that will send them into next week, and you see stats like USMC losing more men to sport bike's then actual combat.. -- thus the military now offering classes from Road Racers. (Star School). for anyone with a Sport Bike.. -- as much as I hate regulation, Race Training should be a requirement for anything that does zed-60 in under 3 seconds.. [Not just MC safety school, but high speed training, cause you KNOW they will go fast]
-Take a survey, and there is NO average driver.. Everyone's in the top 20%.. Hilarious..
--Realizing I've reached a level of car where I can actually get in trouble.. Most cars are pretty tame and you don't run into this too frequent as it takes north of 250k to get this kind of performance unless you get a GT3, or know how to build cars..(except China these days.. LOL.. never seen so many wad ups on Gt Spirit)
Bikes are different. any kid can get a rocket for 12k that will send them into next week, and you see stats like USMC losing more men to sport bike's then actual combat.. -- thus the military now offering classes from Road Racers. (Star School). for anyone with a Sport Bike.. -- as much as I hate regulation, Race Training should be a requirement for anything that does zed-60 in under 3 seconds.. [Not just MC safety school, but high speed training, cause you KNOW they will go fast]
-Take a survey, and there is NO average driver.. Everyone's in the top 20%.. Hilarious..
Here's an anecdotal story: A young man walks into my friends MC shop. This is the guy I would have my son buy from because his heart is in the right place and he does his best to steer newbies away from fast and technically challenging bikes if it's their first.
He attempts to guide the young man to a 500 cc bike which is in all reality a gracious plenty in this day and age.
The young man paces back and forth and no matter how hard the dealer tries he wants, get this, a Hayabusa. I won't ride a Hayabusa.
This goes on and finally the young man says its that or nothing. Since my friend is in the bike selling business he takes his "moral" hat off and puts on his sales togs. They go through the motions and "new rider" is off on his "way too much for him" sport bike.
The mechanics in the back have a jar that they keep money in for bets on when a bike might come back. A bit dark but that's the story. The winner is the guy who picks the day it will be back. In this case overnight. Yes, it came back on a roll back the next morning.
Young and dumb has done a ground loop. He throttled it up at a stoplight and dumped the clutch a little to aggressively and the bike did a circle around him. His pride was hurt and his bike was totaled.
While it ended on a sour note he did live to ride another day. Just not that day.
02-24-2014, 01:46 PM
#132
Nordschleife Master
sithot respresents a growing faction of drivers who feel threatened by the advancements made in cars over the past several years. I think this discussion by the guys at /drive sums things up well:
I understand where the animosity comes from. These guys have spent years learning how to drive these machines, and it takes real skill to do so properly. Now, here come these cars with driver aids that take a way some (not all) of the skill to drive quickly. All of the sudden, the skills they developed are not worth as much anymore. I understand where anger comes from.
HOWEVER, there are some things one should consider before getting too angry.
1) It still takes skill to drive fast. AWD, ediff, nanny, DCT aside, physics are still in play. How many here have seen GTR drivers move at a pace WAAAY below what the car is capable of? The angry ones love to say that these cars drive by themselves. They do not. They do make it easier to drive fast if you know what you are doing.
2) The stability control systems in cars now are much more advanced. It used to be that they would just slow you down, and MUST be turned off to run a good lap. That is not the case anymore. They also don't make you any faster. The stability control systems are there to save you and the car from calamity. I'm not out there to 'win' a race, I don't have money on the line (other than the value of the car). I'm out there to have fun. If an electronic system will decrease the chances of me taking a loss at the track without taking away from the fun, I don't have a problem with it. Turning everything off for the sake of saying you have a big hairy chest and don't have a problem with totalling your car in case of an unforseen event is still an option. Turning everything off so you can practice car control and drifting is still an option.
3) Is there value in a car that is designed to allow you go faster than you normally could without the technological advancements? I would think so, otherwise, there would be no point in R&D, no?
I understand where the animosity comes from. These guys have spent years learning how to drive these machines, and it takes real skill to do so properly. Now, here come these cars with driver aids that take a way some (not all) of the skill to drive quickly. All of the sudden, the skills they developed are not worth as much anymore. I understand where anger comes from.
HOWEVER, there are some things one should consider before getting too angry.
1) It still takes skill to drive fast. AWD, ediff, nanny, DCT aside, physics are still in play. How many here have seen GTR drivers move at a pace WAAAY below what the car is capable of? The angry ones love to say that these cars drive by themselves. They do not. They do make it easier to drive fast if you know what you are doing.
2) The stability control systems in cars now are much more advanced. It used to be that they would just slow you down, and MUST be turned off to run a good lap. That is not the case anymore. They also don't make you any faster. The stability control systems are there to save you and the car from calamity. I'm not out there to 'win' a race, I don't have money on the line (other than the value of the car). I'm out there to have fun. If an electronic system will decrease the chances of me taking a loss at the track without taking away from the fun, I don't have a problem with it. Turning everything off for the sake of saying you have a big hairy chest and don't have a problem with totalling your car in case of an unforseen event is still an option. Turning everything off so you can practice car control and drifting is still an option.
3) Is there value in a car that is designed to allow you go faster than you normally could without the technological advancements? I would think so, otherwise, there would be no point in R&D, no?
02-24-2014, 01:59 PM
#133
Rennlist Member
The instructors I know are not pleased with the fact that a lot of drivers "use" these aids to make fast laps. Were they put in a car without them they could not accomplish the same feats.
One old timer told me of a "kid" who had figured out how to "bump up against" the system with such skill that it was second nature. He admonished him that he needed how to learn the right way explaining that if he were to attempt the same thing in his 100% prepared (and very quick) track car that he would have had a violent crash.
Another told me of a driver who lost it in a turn only to have the car pull him out of the predicament. He said the driver gloated "I saved it". My friend replied: "The car saved your ***".
I later asked him was it worth it? Fun is fun but GOK who you may get in with and unlike the drivers ed cars we all knew as youngsters there is no brake or steering wheel on the passenger side.
One old timer told me of a "kid" who had figured out how to "bump up against" the system with such skill that it was second nature. He admonished him that he needed how to learn the right way explaining that if he were to attempt the same thing in his 100% prepared (and very quick) track car that he would have had a violent crash.
Another told me of a driver who lost it in a turn only to have the car pull him out of the predicament. He said the driver gloated "I saved it". My friend replied: "The car saved your ***".
I later asked him was it worth it? Fun is fun but GOK who you may get in with and unlike the drivers ed cars we all knew as youngsters there is no brake or steering wheel on the passenger side.
02-24-2014, 02:02 PM
#134
Nordschleife Master
I hear you. It's all in how someone decides to use the car/aides and their attitude. There's a right way and wrong way to do things for sure. Just don't assume everyone is doing it the wrong way.
02-24-2014, 02:08 PM
#135
Nordschleife Master
Sithot,get a dose of optimism my friend. How about sharing something positive that has happened in your life,folks here are sick of stop sale and recalls,to hear your " life lessons".
Just sayin'...
Just sayin'...