sithot

Crickets.

orthojoe

Does that mean nothing positive has happened in your life? That might explain the anger....

sithot

The crickets were not intended for you.

LateBrake911

Good one..
--Yea, -- Lots of these guys get humbled at the track, but it's good for them as they become safer drivers, and realize the road has no run off and probably not the place to prove your skills.

I'm sure track days have saved a lot of lives.. Cars and Bikes.. Still can't get over all the repeated cold tire crashes EVERY WEEKEND. or the consistent batch of 'ego emergencies' when a liter bike gets passed by a 600, then brakes too late.. off the track in the next turn cause he HAS to pass him back. Always cracks me up seeing them come back in the Wreck truck.. .. . Ok.. back to GT3's.. -- I don't think this poor guy will Ever crash his GT3 again, now that we have all his mistakes covered.. But just to be sure, lets track him down and confiscate his DL..

Manifold

I don't mind instructing in a car with aids, and the current policy of my main PCA region is that PSM should be on for students, but I expect students to be smooth and predictable, not triggering aids much and not doing things which aids can't save you from (eg, braking too late or driving off the track due to early turn in). And if a student wants to go faster than my comfort level, I simply won't let them.

Macca

In defence of the gentleman in the UK on whos misfortune this thread was originally focussed, in his defence he is a multiple performance car owner who races a cateram and one assumes is a very experienced driver (i.e. does not fit into the category of newbie owner currently being crucified). In my early post when I said some owners will have accidents with these cars in teh wet due to inexperience and this being their first 911 ownership experience I was not referring to this specific incident. Although I do not know the specifics of this UK incident its clear that conditions (rain, temps etc) were probably not ideal and there were mitigating circumstances (i.e. the car stepped out of line - we know it will got up to 1m sideways before ESC kicks in, perhaps on a tight dual carriage way and the car travelling 60mph in the opposite direction clips it sending it into a high speed spin - probably a multiple of its original speed, off the road and against a power pole - rear first). Sometimes sh*t just happens. Main thing is driver and daughter walked away shaken but not harmed, car passenger cell was only lightly impacted and insurance has paid out.

MaxLTV

An almost off is still a mistake, and mistake is a reason to be embarrassed, not gloating, so the driver was wrong in the example. But the overall tone of the discussion is still rubbing me the wrong way. It seems that you are implying that a car that kills the driver that makes a small mistake is somehow better. I'd vehemently disagree - chances are, those who "survive" with such cars, survived only because they have not pushed far and just drove at 5/10 most of the time.

I had two pretty wild cars, not very powerful, but very unpredictable and dangerous at their respective limits. I survived by not taking them to the limit unless absolutely safe - after all, I had just one life and not much money for new cars. I learned a lot about respecting cars and road but not much about driving at the limit. But I learned very little about driving at the limit.

Fast forward, and my past track car was an e90 M3. On that thing, even with all nannies off, it's very easy to save pretty much any f-up. Yes, that enables almost anyone to drive it "flat out" just after few days of practice, but is that really a bad thing? A mistake still makes you slower, is still visible to you and to others on track and videos, still shows up as a blemish on datalogs etc. You are still welcome to learn from it, and will not get fast until you do! (And by "you" I mean "one" here, not you personally of course)

So what's better - a car that let's you make a dozen of mistakes and correct them without much consequence, working together with the car, and have a dozen of learning moments helping you become a better driver, or a car that let's you make just one very expensive mistake? I'd argue that the former will result in faster progress and more fun, which is also important factor, because most of us are not doing this for income...

Of course, there is an extreme where the electronic nannies are so aggressive that it's impossible to see mistakes unless you really examine datalogs - these car do impede learning in my opinion. But 991 GT3 is not one of these cars. It's relatively easy to save and gives a lot of cushion, especially driven far from the limit, but you can still clearly see what you are doing wrong when you try to go faster. And it's not a bad thing that when you, let's say, lift at a wrong moment, you end up counter-steering and losing 2 seconds, rather than going engine-first into a wall.

Oh, and when I was offered to instruct, I decided it was not worth the risk for me. I'd rather pay for my track days.

LateBrake911

-- Good video.. thx for posting.. Watched the whole 30 minutes..I think it's related to context.. I like the carburetor example. -- e.g. how far do you want to take it. My philosophy is.

Great, if I learned the original skills, (like I did in MC racing). .I'll feel proud and maybe more genuine, or dare I say maybe even superior then the new kids (to me. .).., but I'l also embrace new technology and take advantage of it, and be better able to apply it as I understand the theory and skills it's based on. ..and smoke the suckers who just press the TSC buttons.. I just want to learn how to drive --For me it's more about thinking, analyzing, retrospect, and feedback, vs. raw natural reaction and quick reflexes. (Otherwise Jackie Chan would be an F1 champ.. LOL) i'll let everyone get back to arguing.. LOL.. Better then TV..

..On a more serious note, I have a jar of Pickles I can't open and I'm starving for something salty.. any advise..

sithot

Max.

Apologies, I did not mean to imply what you inferred.

I do have a degree of Luddite in me. The masses appreciate what has been designed for those who would rather talk on the phone and text than drive. MB-Lane Assist, Attention Assist, Distronic. Drive or take the bus.

I did infer that most "new" Porsche owners won't own their cars long enough to contend with "out of warranty" claims. Electronics will be their bane.

MaxLTV

No worries - I get it now

LateBrake911

Who knows.. might as well watch some of these while they figure out the car fix.. Looks like a lot of these characters were just merrily going along in a straight line and suddenly crashed. Could be so many things.. -- Lots of oversteer errors pulling out of car and coffees.. . I might have to go to a parking lot and practice with this car until I get a track day.. Too many people trying to race me already.. need to manage self restraint, but I know I'll be tempted to tap the throttle... and why do Cayanne Turbo's want to race.. I'll never know.. (maybe they think it's a 911 posing w/ a cheap wing and they can beat me.. )

Serge944

Well put. I think even many F1 drivers forgot how to heel and toe. It's a dying art.

Bill_C4S

Indeed...when Jenson Button and Damon Hill took out Lauda's '77 Ferrari and Hunt's McLaren in a special for Sky F1.....Jenson remarked in the debrief

"you still had to do that thing we used to with 3 pedals in juniors....what was it callled...oh yeah...heal and toe"

sithot

Certainly not the Lone Ranger "in the rain". Here's another courtesy of Wrecked Exotics. Tampa FL.

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/newpho...era-9804.shtml

darth g-f

I agree.
The thing is, by blaming the driver, people are actually trying to actively distance themselves from the fact that they too could crash. By blaming the driver, they say this happened because you can't drive and by extension, that it wouldn't happen to them because "they" know how to drive.

Thing is, when the bird hits the propeller, you have a split second to make the good decision and make the proper move. If you don't, you're toasted. Even F1 driver crashes.

For all we know, the guy had several high performance cars and raced. So I'd believe he either ran into a mechanical problem or into a situation (hydro planing for example) and that he either didn't make the right decision or couldn't execute it properly. This, sadly, could happen to anyone.