Are things really happening too fast?
02-13-2014, 05:02 PM
#17
Race Director
Valid points when driving for pro racing or transport, but when driving for fun on a track, many give priority to making the experience as engaging as possible, regardless of how much speed needs to be compromised in order to maintain a given level of safety. No, I haven't driven this GT3, but I don't see how PDK-S can be nearly as interactive as manual (confirmed to some extent when I tracked a 981 Cayman with PDK).
We've had this discussion many times; you have your perspective and I have mine. With regard to your experience with a Cayman and PDK, though, my old 7.2 Carrera S with PDK was closer in terms of power and platform to the GT3 with PDK-S than the Cayman you drove. Yet my Carrera was an inadequate yardstick by which to measure this GT3. This chassis, engine, and gearbox make for a very different animal.
02-13-2014, 05:15 PM
#18
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Engagement can take many forms, and where the physical act of moving a stick and working a clutch pedal is lost, other sensations, interactions, and opportunities take their place and help expand the experience.
We've had this discussion many times; you have your perspective and I have mine. With regard to your experience with a Cayman and PDK, though, my old 7.2 Carrera S with PDK was closer in terms of power and platform to the GT3 with PDK-S than the Cayman you drove. Yet my Carrera was an inadequate yardstick by which to measure this GT3. This chassis, engine, and gearbox make for a very different animal.
We've had this discussion many times; you have your perspective and I have mine. With regard to your experience with a Cayman and PDK, though, my old 7.2 Carrera S with PDK was closer in terms of power and platform to the GT3 with PDK-S than the Cayman you drove. Yet my Carrera was an inadequate yardstick by which to measure this GT3. This chassis, engine, and gearbox make for a very different animal.
02-13-2014, 05:41 PM
#19
Valid points when driving for pro racing or transport, but when driving for fun on a track, many give priority to making the experience as engaging as possible, regardless of how much speed needs to be compromised in order to maintain a given level of safety. No, I haven't driven this GT3, but I don't see how PDK-S can be nearly as interactive as manual (confirmed to some extent when I tracked a 981 Cayman with PDK).
Yeah I totally agree. Believe me safety is front and center when Im on track. Going quicker is great and engaging/enjoyable, but you cant "just go faster" - speed comes from experience and skill, as well as local knowledge of any given environment (eg track). You can get to say 80% of a cars potential pretty quick, good luck with the next 10% and that final 10% requires a lot of capability most don't have (or the time on hand to be able to develop that skill).
The legacy PDK that I drove (997.2) a while back is nothing like PDKS. I don't think there is a suitable comparo in the Porsche lineup today to the new drive-train.
End of the day driving the car will convince folks one way or another. Probably not for everyone, I think most will like it though.
My ideal garage would have a base 993, 996 GT3, a 997.2 RS, 997.2 4.0, 991 GT3, BAC Momo, McLaren MP4-12C, Z06 Vette etc. I can only pick one though right now plus my DD!
02-14-2014, 01:18 AM
#20
Comparing my 993 to my RS, the RS accelerates so much faster that the time between shifts is much closer. So to me its less about the rpm range and more about time between shifts to bang off the next gear at the right time.
While I like having the manual, I'm pretty sure a PDK would be a much better solution to a novice like me on the track. As it was said, less worrying about shifts means more focus on the turns.....
While I like having the manual, I'm pretty sure a PDK would be a much better solution to a novice like me on the track. As it was said, less worrying about shifts means more focus on the turns.....
02-14-2014, 04:18 PM
#21
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I believe the idea is to stay in 7k-9k rev range. With seven closely spaced ratios and a very fast shifts, you can stay in that zone longer. I am not particularly a very fast shifter, especially going from 2nd to 3rd (I don't think I'll have to do 4th to 5th in this car on the track). The PDK-S will allow people to stay in the 7k-9k range longer.
02-14-2014, 05:53 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I have the same impression as Manifold. If the goal is challenging fun, then dumbing down the driver requirements doesn't make sense. If the goal is numerical lap times and bragging rights, the flappy paddle makes more sense. Coupling this with reducing money shifts and warranty hassles and its a no brainer for Porsche corporate. I can play some mean guitar solos on guitar hero but practicing hard, sometimes failing and finally playing simpler ones well on my Les Paul gives me infinitely more pleasure and satisfaction. Different strokes...
02-15-2014, 05:25 AM
#23
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This is not another argument or comment about manual vs. auto.
I love how Porsche engineers and applies technology to it's cars, especially the 911. It waited a long time to add ABS, but 20+ years later the system would still be considered smooth compared to what many manufactures are offering today. Porsche waited on PDK until it nailed the concept... no SMG here. It even seemed to nail (motorized) rear wheel steering on it's first try.
So my question is....
Are things really happening so fast as the 991 GT3 charges to red line that PDK really is mandatory?
Owners and reviews alike are starting to mention this more and more to justify Porsche's decision to offer only one transmission. I can understand that all the car's systems are designed with this transmission and that it makes the car faster. And, that it's even a very fun transmission. But are things really happening so fast that PDK really is necessary to fully enjoy the car? Not talking about lap times...
I would think with the new engines extended RPM range, you would have more time or flexibility to shift?
My 964 red lines at 6,800 (its in the power band from 4,000+). So with less than 3,000 to work with I need to be able to shift fast.
A 997 GT3 has an 8,400 red line; I'm assuming there's at least 4,000 plus RPM to work with, so there is even more time to shift. I've been lucky enough to sit in the passenger seat during a track day, and things didn't seem too frantic....
Now the red line is at 9,000 and somehow things are too frantic to shift for yourself?
6,800... 8,400... 9,000 Why does the increased red line necessitate a new transmission?
(I understand gearing and acceleration rate play a big part in this too)
Awesome car, love everything about it! Just curious...
This video is really helpful to understand what I'm talking about.
I love how Porsche engineers and applies technology to it's cars, especially the 911. It waited a long time to add ABS, but 20+ years later the system would still be considered smooth compared to what many manufactures are offering today. Porsche waited on PDK until it nailed the concept... no SMG here. It even seemed to nail (motorized) rear wheel steering on it's first try.
So my question is....
Are things really happening so fast as the 991 GT3 charges to red line that PDK really is mandatory?
Owners and reviews alike are starting to mention this more and more to justify Porsche's decision to offer only one transmission. I can understand that all the car's systems are designed with this transmission and that it makes the car faster. And, that it's even a very fun transmission. But are things really happening so fast that PDK really is necessary to fully enjoy the car? Not talking about lap times...
I would think with the new engines extended RPM range, you would have more time or flexibility to shift?
My 964 red lines at 6,800 (its in the power band from 4,000+). So with less than 3,000 to work with I need to be able to shift fast.
A 997 GT3 has an 8,400 red line; I'm assuming there's at least 4,000 plus RPM to work with, so there is even more time to shift. I've been lucky enough to sit in the passenger seat during a track day, and things didn't seem too frantic....
Now the red line is at 9,000 and somehow things are too frantic to shift for yourself?
6,800... 8,400... 9,000 Why does the increased red line necessitate a new transmission?
(I understand gearing and acceleration rate play a big part in this too)
Awesome car, love everything about it! Just curious...
This video is really helpful to understand what I'm talking about.
If the emperor has no clothes, well, the emperor has no clothes.
Come down to Wilmington anytime for a dose of non-pc sanity and enjoy this Absolutely unsafe, 2013 non-pdk, non-pasm, 6-Speed manual-560hp-9000rpm-3000 lb (100lbs lighter than the 991 GT3)-things-happening-too-fast machine. If you are feeling really ballsy, you can even try out the 600hp car in the background. Things REALLY get happening fast in that... However, there is one caveat tho: You might actually have to test your skill as a driver in either car... WOW, can you imagine that????
02-15-2014, 07:58 AM
#25
Hmmmm…
It's 5:30 a.m. Saturday and waiting for the family to get up, I want to say thank you to all for the input. I very much enjoy this forum and everyone's opinions.:thumb up: To add to our community, here's mine.
This 991 GT3 is just about PERFECT.
For me, when on track I want to be FAST and I have two goals… first to catch the guy in front of me and when there's no one else in front, I measure my lap times to then compete against myself. The beauty of driving a car so PUT TOGETHER is indescribable.
It is fact that this pdk can shift faster than humanly possible. When you hit 9000 rpm and shift, it only drops a few thousand, but stays well in the "wheelhouse" of torque that the pull never stops… then you shift again… staying in the same power band.
When my tires start heating and as I've started playing w/ tire pressure, losing a few seconds off my lap times, I'm kicking and screaming torn between coming off track to let some air out vs. staying out and not losing time on track (nor allowing anyone I've worked so hard to pass to get back out in front
Yes, I am without shame a child)
If you're lucky enough to see one of these Unicorns on track and for whatever reason you catch up to it, I doubt one will care that the car had trouble, loose tires or whatever excuse it is that slowed the car down?
Rumor has it that the new RS may come out w/ a manual option? I'm hoping I'm one of the lucky ones that gets a hold of one when it comes out and I would love to run against the stick against my pdk because I will WITHOUT shame take anything and everything I can get to make me faster.:thumb up: There's too much on track going on at all times and I don't care whether you're a "professional" racer or weekend warrior like myself, "driving" this GT3 by itself being SOOOOO damn fast is itself work because everything happens that much faster.
Take one out for a spin and you'll see.
It's 5:30 a.m. Saturday and waiting for the family to get up, I want to say thank you to all for the input. I very much enjoy this forum and everyone's opinions.:thumb up: To add to our community, here's mine.
This 991 GT3 is just about PERFECT.
For me, when on track I want to be FAST and I have two goals… first to catch the guy in front of me and when there's no one else in front, I measure my lap times to then compete against myself. The beauty of driving a car so PUT TOGETHER is indescribable.
It is fact that this pdk can shift faster than humanly possible. When you hit 9000 rpm and shift, it only drops a few thousand, but stays well in the "wheelhouse" of torque that the pull never stops… then you shift again… staying in the same power band.
When my tires start heating and as I've started playing w/ tire pressure, losing a few seconds off my lap times, I'm kicking and screaming torn between coming off track to let some air out vs. staying out and not losing time on track (nor allowing anyone I've worked so hard to pass to get back out in front
Yes, I am without shame a child)If you're lucky enough to see one of these Unicorns on track and for whatever reason you catch up to it, I doubt one will care that the car had trouble, loose tires or whatever excuse it is that slowed the car down?
Rumor has it that the new RS may come out w/ a manual option? I'm hoping I'm one of the lucky ones that gets a hold of one when it comes out and I would love to run against the stick against my pdk because I will WITHOUT shame take anything and everything I can get to make me faster.:thumb up: There's too much on track going on at all times and I don't care whether you're a "professional" racer or weekend warrior like myself, "driving" this GT3 by itself being SOOOOO damn fast is itself work because everything happens that much faster.
Take one out for a spin and you'll see.
02-15-2014, 09:05 AM
#26
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^ DE isn't racing. And racing requires cars with proper safety equipment (roll cage, fire suppression, etc.).
02-15-2014, 12:22 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Valid points when driving for pro racing or transport, but when driving for fun on a track, many give priority to making the experience as engaging as possible, regardless of how much speed needs to be compromised in order to maintain a given level of safety. No, I haven't driven this GT3, but I don't see how PDK-S can be nearly as interactive as manual (confirmed to some extent when I tracked a 981 Cayman with PDK).
Engagement can take many forms, and where the physical act of moving a stick and working a clutch pedal is lost, other sensations, interactions, and opportunities take their place and help expand the experience.
We've had this discussion many times; you have your perspective and I have mine. With regard to your experience with a Cayman and PDK, though, my old 7.2 Carrera S with PDK was closer in terms of power and platform to the GT3 with PDK-S than the Cayman you drove. Yet my Carrera was an inadequate yardstick by which to measure this GT3. This chassis, engine, and gearbox make for a very different animal.
We've had this discussion many times; you have your perspective and I have mine. With regard to your experience with a Cayman and PDK, though, my old 7.2 Carrera S with PDK was closer in terms of power and platform to the GT3 with PDK-S than the Cayman you drove. Yet my Carrera was an inadequate yardstick by which to measure this GT3. This chassis, engine, and gearbox make for a very different animal.
How hard is it to stomp on the brakes and turn in smooth?
Foot and hand work in combination is like playing an instrument.
If you build a guitar for example that hits the notes for you, are you still playing by just hitting the strings the right way?
I very well could love driving the PDK on track, but I'd always feel like I could be challenged more to drive well.
