Devils Advocate- The things I don't like about my GT3
02-05-2014, 07:21 PM
#61
But in all fairness you don't have to go to the track to enjoy the vehicle. It is an engineering marvel and even a Carrera is great to drive on the road without track experience. I know you can't push all out of the gt3 but I don't think you have to the track to make a smile come to your face as any others have noted.
02-05-2014, 07:45 PM
#62
Race Car
By far the best advice given. I am by no means a track expert so I think riding shotgun with someone who knows this car better than me will let me brake later and also push the car harder.
All this discussion about not being able to push my car hard enough got me thinking and it made me realize that I really am taking the car for granted and not pushing it hard enough.
I went for a spirited drive through the back part of Magnolia, Texas (The locals will most likely know where that is if your from Houston) and told myself I'm going to start pushing the car a little harder and see what I can pull out of it. The car did not disappoint. It came to the point that I was pushing the car so hard I thought maybe the revs are too much or I better take it easy but no the car just kept pulling for days at 6K-9K RPM. The car ate up the corners and I think I could feel the electric steering even more, which made me feel a little disconnected, but Jesus does it go where you tell it to go.
I love all M cars, I think they are terrific and they are wonderfully engineered and personally think if someone disagrees with that either hasn't really properly driven one or is a fanboy who can't get over the fact that something that "hefty" can be that good. Having said that the 991 GT3 is in another category, probably a different league really, than the M5. I think as I am getting more and more used to the GT3 I am falling more and more in love with it. The car is engineered for insanity and I adore it.
All this discussion about not being able to push my car hard enough got me thinking and it made me realize that I really am taking the car for granted and not pushing it hard enough.
I went for a spirited drive through the back part of Magnolia, Texas (The locals will most likely know where that is if your from Houston) and told myself I'm going to start pushing the car a little harder and see what I can pull out of it. The car did not disappoint. It came to the point that I was pushing the car so hard I thought maybe the revs are too much or I better take it easy but no the car just kept pulling for days at 6K-9K RPM. The car ate up the corners and I think I could feel the electric steering even more, which made me feel a little disconnected, but Jesus does it go where you tell it to go.
I love all M cars, I think they are terrific and they are wonderfully engineered and personally think if someone disagrees with that either hasn't really properly driven one or is a fanboy who can't get over the fact that something that "hefty" can be that good. Having said that the 991 GT3 is in another category, probably a different league really, than the M5. I think as I am getting more and more used to the GT3 I am falling more and more in love with it. The car is engineered for insanity and I adore it.
02-05-2014, 07:47 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
same torque as the base 991S but at higher RPM
thus at 4000 RPM the base 991s is better than the GT3
in terms of enjoyment (not faster on the Nurburgring
marketing circuit indeed....) but better on regular roads
than the GT3 , so shall i buy a 150k$ GT3 just for the
track?? MUCH better a Catheram R620 it costs 1 third
thus at 4000 RPM the base 991s is better than the GT3
in terms of enjoyment (not faster on the Nurburgring
marketing circuit indeed....) but better on regular roads
than the GT3 , so shall i buy a 150k$ GT3 just for the
track?? MUCH better a Catheram R620 it costs 1 third
Please can you tell me your experiences with your own 991 GT3? How does it compare to your 991S below 4500rpm?
Yes the 991 GT3 is a track car, or for spirited driving so I dont think many are bought purely for DD although I have no doubt this is now possible with this generation...
02-05-2014, 08:00 PM
#65
GT3 player par excellence
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You must be the only person Ive read (Ive followed every motor journalists review of this car from inception, in english, german and french - maybe 30 reviews) plus perhaps 2--30 owners reviews and experience in my own GT3 that has talked about this. If there is a difference Id bet its no more than 30-40nm in a very tight rpm range (500rpm), and with the GT3s cloer stacked gears would be irrelevant.
Please can you tell me your experiences with your own 991 GT3? How does it compare to your 991S below 4500rpm?
Yes the 991 GT3 is a track car, or for spirited driving so I dont think many are bought purely for DD although I have no doubt this is now possible with this generation...
Please can you tell me your experiences with your own 991 GT3? How does it compare to your 991S below 4500rpm?
Yes the 991 GT3 is a track car, or for spirited driving so I dont think many are bought purely for DD although I have no doubt this is now possible with this generation...
to each his own
u eother get it or u don't
I know powder is bad for me, but I snort it anyways
tq curve is a number. yes hp,at low rpm is,good for most cats. if one likes low rpm hp, zo6 is real tq. my duramax is tuned to I think close to 1000ftlb at 1500 rpm. ot just buy a TT
the beauty of gt3 is to,peg the needle to 8500 rpm.
cateram, radical, sure, fun, fast but they aren't cars
02-05-2014, 08:50 PM
#66
Race Director
same torque as the base 991S but at higher RPM
thus at 4000 RPM the base 991s is better than the GT3
in terms of enjoyment (not faster on the Nurburgring
marketing circuit indeed....) but better on regular roads
than the GT3 , so shall i buy a 150k$ GT3 just for the
track?? MUCH better a Catheram R620 it costs 1 third
thus at 4000 RPM the base 991s is better than the GT3
in terms of enjoyment (not faster on the Nurburgring
marketing circuit indeed....) but better on regular roads
than the GT3 , so shall i buy a 150k$ GT3 just for the
track?? MUCH better a Catheram R620 it costs 1 third
02-05-2014, 08:58 PM
#67
Race Director
02-05-2014, 09:20 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
Respectfully, you're failing to account for the significantly lower gearing of the GT3 relative to the 991 Carrera which overcomes the issue of higher peak torque. I've got nothing against the 991 C2S; it's a great car, is more comfortable than the GT3, and gets better mileage. But on regular roads, the GT3 gives up nothing in terms of performance or flexibility. It's unmatched by the Carrera, and IMHO is a couple of steps up the excitement ladder. The torque numbers on paper don't tell the story; you need to drive one for a while....
Completely agree.
here is a comparison of the 991S X51 vs the 991 GT3. At 3500 rpm the 991S X51 is making 380 Nm, the 991 GT3 is making 330 Nm. Pretty close to the widest separation between the two torque curves. Torque to the ground is higher in the GT3 across 2nd through 7th gear and I would argue that torque in 1st is more than available traction for either car.
991S X51
Final Drive 3.44_____x_________wheel torque
1_________3.91____13.45_____5111
2_________2.29____7.877_____2993
3_________1.65____5.676_____2156
4_________1.30____4.472_____1699
5_________1.08____3.715_____1411
6_________0.88____3.027_____1150
7_________0.62____2.132_____810
991 GT3
Final Drive 3.97_____x__________wheel torque
1_________3.75____14.887_____4912
2_________2.38____9.4486_____3118
3_________1.72____6.8284_____2253
4_________1.34____5.3198_____1755
5_________1.11____4.4067_____1454
6_________0.96____3.8112_____1257
7_________0.84____3.3348_____1100
Ryan
02-05-2014, 09:33 PM
#70
Drifting
Mike,
Completely agree.
here is a comparison of the 991S X51 vs the 991 GT3. At 3500 rpm the 991S X51 is making 380 Nm, the 991 GT3 is making 330 Nm. Pretty close to the widest separation between the two torque curves. Torque to the ground is higher in the GT3 across 2nd through 7th gear and I would argue that torque in 1st is more than available traction for either car.
991S X51
Final Drive 3.44_____x_________wheel torque
1_________3.91____13.45_____5111
2_________2.29____7.877_____2993
3_________1.65____5.676_____2156
4_________1.30____4.472_____1699
5_________1.08____3.715_____1411
6_________0.88____3.027_____1150
7_________0.62____2.132_____810
991 GT3
Final Drive 3.97_____x__________wheel torque
1_________3.75____14.887_____4912
2_________2.38____9.4486_____3118
3_________1.72____6.8284_____2253
4_________1.34____5.3198_____1755
5_________1.11____4.4067_____1454
6_________0.96____3.8112_____1257
7_________0.84____3.3348_____1100
Ryan
Completely agree.
here is a comparison of the 991S X51 vs the 991 GT3. At 3500 rpm the 991S X51 is making 380 Nm, the 991 GT3 is making 330 Nm. Pretty close to the widest separation between the two torque curves. Torque to the ground is higher in the GT3 across 2nd through 7th gear and I would argue that torque in 1st is more than available traction for either car.
991S X51
Final Drive 3.44_____x_________wheel torque
1_________3.91____13.45_____5111
2_________2.29____7.877_____2993
3_________1.65____5.676_____2156
4_________1.30____4.472_____1699
5_________1.08____3.715_____1411
6_________0.88____3.027_____1150
7_________0.62____2.132_____810
991 GT3
Final Drive 3.97_____x__________wheel torque
1_________3.75____14.887_____4912
2_________2.38____9.4486_____3118
3_________1.72____6.8284_____2253
4_________1.34____5.3198_____1755
5_________1.11____4.4067_____1454
6_________0.96____3.8112_____1257
7_________0.84____3.3348_____1100
Ryan
02-05-2014, 10:50 PM
#72
... as another BMW owner stepping from E39 M5 then E92 M3 into the GT3, I echo the wheel well sounds, the distinct different handling at track and at spirited driving. These are impressions after years of BMW experience ... just observations. I instantly felt when getting into the 991 GT3 that it was a bit meek below 4000rpm, compared to the M3 (with lower gearing limited slip diff, low parasitic loss belt pulley system, high air-flow CF intake, etc) ... but expected. But who wants to drive the GT3 outside of the 6000-9000rpm range, wherein it so decisively outperforms my M3. The PDK shifts are SO quick ... instantly knew it was a class above my M3 DCT. Also what struck me, was the light/precise instant turn-in ... of course, the M3's front engine has a lot to do with this. That turn-in difference is so noticeable. Can't but help fall in love with that.
The M5 was way too heavy.
I have not a doubt that this car will keep me on the track .... I haven't driven a Porsche seriously since a 356B years ago. The GT3 reminds me of the 356B's turn-in and how it was glued to the road.
The GT3 needs to be revved HIGH and persistently so, like a 2-stroke high performance motorcross bike.
The M5 was way too heavy.
I have not a doubt that this car will keep me on the track .... I haven't driven a Porsche seriously since a 356B years ago. The GT3 reminds me of the 356B's turn-in and how it was glued to the road.
The GT3 needs to be revved HIGH and persistently so, like a 2-stroke high performance motorcross bike.
02-05-2014, 11:07 PM
#73
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^ Turn-in likely has a lot to do with the RWS.
02-06-2014, 02:21 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
My friends. Couldn't resist.... they are sometimes faster, but their cars are not driven on the street anymore, unlike mine.
Thanks for the feedback guys on the new 991 GT3, it's looking better all the time, and lust is growing.
02-06-2014, 02:31 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Actually its probably not this....
Mostly you will be turning in between 50-80kmph (from my experience fast road and track driving). This is usually your lowest speed on the track once youve scrubbed off some speed. At that speed the RWS is not functioning (i.e. it is set static toe=0degrees).
The reason this car turns in like no other 911 before it is a combination of improved chassis dynamics, wide front tyres with grippy tyres and and electronic rear diff that is able to lock itself infinately this keeping deceleration lock modest in order to reduce the understeer inherent in more aggressive fixed decell/accell mechanical LSDs used on these GT3s in teh past...
Thats my thoughts having driven it. I found the front end grip so good (compared to my 993) that I was turning in later than I typically would with a bit more lock. This can become very entertaining as you learn how much is too much and the rear scrubs wide (oversteer). Best not to learn while wiife and baggage in car I found LOL! Once you understand this dynamic and get a bit more confidence you really can have some fun setting up the 991 GT3 out of a corner. I didnt experiment widely beyond this point as i was on foreign roads with the wheel on teh wrong side of the car but as soon as I have this car on my favourite RHD driving roads or my local track I will be exploring this further...
Mostly you will be turning in between 50-80kmph (from my experience fast road and track driving). This is usually your lowest speed on the track once youve scrubbed off some speed. At that speed the RWS is not functioning (i.e. it is set static toe=0degrees).
The reason this car turns in like no other 911 before it is a combination of improved chassis dynamics, wide front tyres with grippy tyres and and electronic rear diff that is able to lock itself infinately this keeping deceleration lock modest in order to reduce the understeer inherent in more aggressive fixed decell/accell mechanical LSDs used on these GT3s in teh past...
Thats my thoughts having driven it. I found the front end grip so good (compared to my 993) that I was turning in later than I typically would with a bit more lock. This can become very entertaining as you learn how much is too much and the rear scrubs wide (oversteer). Best not to learn while wiife and baggage in car I found LOL! Once you understand this dynamic and get a bit more confidence you really can have some fun setting up the 991 GT3 out of a corner. I didnt experiment widely beyond this point as i was on foreign roads with the wheel on teh wrong side of the car but as soon as I have this car on my favourite RHD driving roads or my local track I will be exploring this further...