Devils Advocate- The things I don't like about my GT3
02-06-2014, 06:11 PM
#91
Three Wheelin'
^+1 awesome post, Shakenbake. Reflects much of my ongoing experience going from M to GT.
02-06-2014, 06:27 PM
#92
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Shall we say that the 911 is a man's car, Bimmer is a boy's car? 
02-06-2014, 06:52 PM
#93
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If you are at the point where you drive by feel, and very close/comfortable to the traction limit in your M3, the first time you drive a track focused 911 (GT3, RS etc) is going to be a interesting and eyebrow raising experience for you. The two cars could not be more different (slight hyperbole) in grip and and dynamic character. Set aside weight differences, power, and tire sizes for a second. Where the M3 is very stable and neutral at turn-in and mid corner, the 911 is nervous, understeering, and not confidence inspiring. Where the M3 is unstable at corner exit under full power, the 911 can put down massive, stable power. Where the M3 is neutral and easy to control via throttle and relatively happy with adjustments in front-rear weight transfer, the 911 is absolutely not happy using the same magnitude of input/changes.
The net of all of this is that you have to drive the 911 very differently, and you need to find your confidence in new places. The grip and stability under power means you can get on the gas waaaaaay earlier in a corner, and you need to see past the initial difficulty and instability in entering the corner (I am talking in relative terms...). Your confidence and precision also needs to be greater, because you don't have as much ability to correct a mistake (i.e. no lifting throttle to tuck the nose in).
My first time out in the RS disappointed and scared me at the same time. I felt like I had lost the ability to drive (the way I drive - which is by the seat of the pants, not by calculation). I was not much faster, despite having a 700+lb weight advantage, and 40 more HP - it completely shattered my confidence (not to mention I was pushing a car that was worth more than 3x my E90 around). That feeling started to go away after a few days of seat time, and now it's mostly gone and replaced with a new kind of confidence. Having seen the differences in dynamics and grip, etc - I can get into any car and very quickly drive with higher confidence and speed. Kind of like - "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" feeling.
For a just-getting-started soon to be track junkie, the GT3 is going to feel better right out of the box. It's tighter, controls body motions better, and is massively lighter on it's feet. Steering and general feedback are much better. You will like it for sure, its a big step closer to a race car than a OEM M3. And you'll be faster because it's lighter and has more thrust.
But ultimately it's more difficult to drive at or approaching the limits. And that is where the appeal comes from - the character, the challenge in mastering it....many people who get hooked on this go backwards in time to buy older 911s that expose this character in higher concentrations. Part of the reason why there has been such a love-it/hate-it/complain/whining air about the 991. I've not driven a 991 gt3 yet but I can imagine that Porsche has minimized a lot of the sources of confidence issues through physical chassis improvements (longer wheelbase, center of gravity shift forward), and with gizmos like RWS, e-diff, vectoring, and other wonders, and dialed up the bad-*** race-car factor.
The net of all of this is that you have to drive the 911 very differently, and you need to find your confidence in new places. The grip and stability under power means you can get on the gas waaaaaay earlier in a corner, and you need to see past the initial difficulty and instability in entering the corner (I am talking in relative terms...). Your confidence and precision also needs to be greater, because you don't have as much ability to correct a mistake (i.e. no lifting throttle to tuck the nose in).
My first time out in the RS disappointed and scared me at the same time. I felt like I had lost the ability to drive (the way I drive - which is by the seat of the pants, not by calculation). I was not much faster, despite having a 700+lb weight advantage, and 40 more HP - it completely shattered my confidence (not to mention I was pushing a car that was worth more than 3x my E90 around). That feeling started to go away after a few days of seat time, and now it's mostly gone and replaced with a new kind of confidence. Having seen the differences in dynamics and grip, etc - I can get into any car and very quickly drive with higher confidence and speed. Kind of like - "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" feeling.
For a just-getting-started soon to be track junkie, the GT3 is going to feel better right out of the box. It's tighter, controls body motions better, and is massively lighter on it's feet. Steering and general feedback are much better. You will like it for sure, its a big step closer to a race car than a OEM M3. And you'll be faster because it's lighter and has more thrust.
But ultimately it's more difficult to drive at or approaching the limits. And that is where the appeal comes from - the character, the challenge in mastering it....many people who get hooked on this go backwards in time to buy older 911s that expose this character in higher concentrations. Part of the reason why there has been such a love-it/hate-it/complain/whining air about the 991. I've not driven a 991 gt3 yet but I can imagine that Porsche has minimized a lot of the sources of confidence issues through physical chassis improvements (longer wheelbase, center of gravity shift forward), and with gizmos like RWS, e-diff, vectoring, and other wonders, and dialed up the bad-*** race-car factor.
02-06-2014, 07:24 PM
#94
Excellent post, but what you are describing as peculiarities of a GT3 has been significantly reduced in 991 GT3. Turn in is sublime and very intuitive, and front-rear weight transfer is has more "expected" effect rather than surprising the driver. Mostly in a good way. But of course you can still put a ton more power down on corner exits. I felt like I needed to re-learn quite a bit when I tried 997.2 gt3, but had much less of that feeling in 991.
02-07-2014, 12:34 AM
#97
Three Wheelin'
but I would be as bold to say that in my F10 M5 I could run circles around 997 GT3's (As Frayed mentioned the M5 is much easier to push to the limit than the GT3) Also all I've known is M's on the track so I'm sure with time I will be just as comfortable in this thing as I did in my previous cars.
As far as the car in general, it is wonderful wonderful wonderful. I can't think of a better car that I have ever been in or driven and I wouldn't exchange the "rawness" of the car for creature comforts. The car is a blast and I find myself laughing by myself when I drive it (I'm pretty sure people next to me think I'm on drugs).
As far as the car in general, it is wonderful wonderful wonderful. I can't think of a better car that I have ever been in or driven and I wouldn't exchange the "rawness" of the car for creature comforts. The car is a blast and I find myself laughing by myself when I drive it (I'm pretty sure people next to me think I'm on drugs).
Rovman and I drive stock 996 GT3 on street tires. Rovman laps MSRH in 1:43-44, and I around 1:47. I'm only into my second year of any track experience. If April is no good, just send me PM and we can arrange for a day of track day fun.
Enjoy your new GT3 in good health or if you still prefer the M5, we can discuss trading.
02-07-2014, 11:35 AM
#98
Instructor
Thread Starter
This sounds like a challenge. On Monday you can sign up for a track event at MSRH in April. https://www.thedriversedge.net/02_tracks.htm
Rovman and I drive stock 996 GT3 on street tires. Rovman laps MSRH in 1:43-44, and I around 1:47. I'm only into my second year of any track experience. If April is no good, just send me PM and we can arrange for a day of track day fun.
Enjoy your new GT3 in good health or if you still prefer the M5, we can discuss trading.
Rovman and I drive stock 996 GT3 on street tires. Rovman laps MSRH in 1:43-44, and I around 1:47. I'm only into my second year of any track experience. If April is no good, just send me PM and we can arrange for a day of track day fun.
Enjoy your new GT3 in good health or if you still prefer the M5, we can discuss trading.
02-09-2014, 11:15 PM
#99
Real dislikes...
- I can't stand not having factory optioned roll cage and capacity for 6 point harness.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
02-09-2014, 11:55 PM
#100
Rennlist Member
- I can't stand not having factory optioned roll cage and capacity for 6 point harness.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
I cant recall is there was any wind buffet at 80-100 mph. When I have been travelling that fast on the road Ive not noticed (probably concentrating too hard on the road LOL).
I understand what you are saying about wheel/tyre availability for the track. However I suspect we are just early on the scene here and within the next 12-18 months many new and lower cost options will become available. Also the factory told me that with steel brakes there is no reason 19" cannot be used. I guess finding a 19" rim wide enough could be an issue.
As for your guages, my temp regulary moves between 88 C and 93C when pushing hard but does stay very level at around 88C for most of the time. I dont know what this is in F. That said I was feeling like you it seemed very stable - until I hit some slow traffic for 15 minutes after a hard 100 mph run on the autostradas then the temp increased gradually to 103C where a fan or something must have kicked in and it was pushed down again to under 100C. Try idling in traffic after a hard run and see if that need moves. If not then would suggest trying the dealers diagnostic tool to see what the true temps are. Alot of 997.2 GT3 guys said there temp needle hardly moves but the actually water temp could vary by 15 C and that the dial was notoriously inaccurate. Apparently the warnings are accurate tho!
Have really enjoyed the car so far but very much looking forward to getting it out on my local track....
02-10-2014, 02:39 AM
#101
GT3 player par excellence
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02-10-2014, 09:29 AM
#103
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02-10-2014, 10:06 AM
#104
Instructor
Thread Starter
- I can't stand not having factory optioned roll cage and capacity for 6 point harness.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
Also I totally get what you're saying about rubbing paint with another car. This is the first time I have been in a car that I double and triple check my blind spot out of fear some moron is just hanging there because he wants to ruin my day. I also notice I get pissed more now when I see someone do something stupid on the road/track, almost like I have a self entitlement, but it really is just me fearing for my new baby. I am still learning to push this car harder and harder and the great part is that it wants me to keep pushing
02-10-2014, 11:30 AM
#105
Race Car
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- I can't stand not having factory optioned roll cage and capacity for 6 point harness.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
- 20" wheels w/ no room for smaller diameter on a purpose built track car??
-No seat memory on 18 way adjustable seats?? (Try sharing the car w/ your wife in between sessions).
-Cockpit has a wind buffet from 80-100 mph (like when you open only one window of another car)
-No backup camera (I admit, I got used to backing a car in the garage after a run w/ helmet and hans looking at the camera)
-Even though I've had my thermostat replaced, the gauges have to still be broken? Even after hard runs, the temps don't ever seem to move???? There's just no way this car could possibly stay cool and in zone the way it does? Worries me.
-BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT… it's too fast and too exclusive. DE's become almost boorish, but don't want to risk rubbing paint at races.
Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Now that I did…. now what???
If any of you out there are looking for reasons NOT to like this car, nothing is going to be "perfect." But, for the car it's supposed to be… for the track, it's absolutely stunning, incredible, amazing, unbelievable, astonishing… and epitomizes the enthusiasm that keeps us all bonded in these threads. For me, all the ancillary other things are slight annoyances that I can more than live with.
